Crackiactually, that manual implies the flux between bga and ball keeps the ball in place
Crackiso care is good, but not too important
flybackI know what is ground on this flyback
flybackhow do I find the main power pin
Crackibetween the legs?
ethosif there's a pad on the underside, you can also check for a short between it and the pins
ethosoh whoops you're looking for power. that just confirms ground
ethosGood morning
LuminaxWkI tried to identify for Lulminax >_> <_< I need moar sleep
ethosIn that case, I guess I take mine back :)
LuminaxWkyou're going to take what back? :o
ethosMy good morning
Flea86LuminaxWk: Good morning
LuminaxWkmorning :3
LuminaxWkeeeey, it's a 'good' morning, I guess ?
LuminaxWkany morning that you're still breathing is a good morning
DocScrutinizer05UGT morning
Flea86LuminaxWk: Indeed. It means you still get to do the things you want to do ;)
LuminaxWkI'm still having difficulty scoring this new job :|
LuminaxWkif scored, it means a 30% salary increase, -5 hours of work per day and a per project bonus
nullifierholy crow 6230
LuminaxWkalthough if I know myself, that's probably a -8 hours ;)
LuminaxWk(plus an all-nighter of 22 hours of work in one day to complete everything)
LuminaxWkACTION goes back to polish some codes
Flea86Have fun
LuminaxWkfun... eh
ggVGcI managed to get it off anyway.. by bending each leg with a metal stick and soldering it off with the other hand
ggVGcand now I have it in my hand, and it's kind of broken, but I can't see what was wrong with it..
ggVGc(usb connector)
Crackiso what's wrong with it
Crackinvm, you can _not_ see
ggVGcexcept for the damages I did when taking it off, everytihng seems fine
ggVGcand I mean, it's literally 4 metal pieces
ggVGcnot much that can be broken
ggVGcwell, now I just get a new one and solder it on I guess
spludOkay, now go hot-melt that baby back in place.
DocScrutinizer05don't underestimate how much breakage can be in "4 metal pieces" and their fixture
DocScrutinizer05particularly connectors
spludI bodged together a quickie ICSP to DIP8 socket with pins carrier for testing something today, with pin headers soldered through the board and the DIP socket soldered to the top nubs of those, so after verifying it functioned (actually with an an SOIC-to-DIP spring clip adapter inserted into the DIP socket), I added some hotmelt around the base of the socket so it isn't prone to flexing.
spludNow, at some point, I need to put together something with these TI BQ25570RGRR Ultra Low Power Harvesters...
spludDon't think I'll be ordering any of them from Verical - they have a MOQ of 3K.
ggVGcDocScrutinizer05: yep, well if it wasn't broken before it definitely is now after my bending excecises
ggVGcbut the plan was to replace it anyway so doesn't matter
ggVGcwas just hoping I'd see what was obviously wrong
DocScrutinizer05there are just 4 main issues: poor soldering, bending or breaking or loss of elasticity of contacts, dirt or removed gold coating and oxide on contacts, and broken or deformed plastic fixture
Jan-ACTION wakes up 45 minutes after going to sleep :/
Jan-ACTION stomps around looking angry
Jan-ACTION kicks a can
ias_ssACTION sees more quit join messages than real chat
ias_ssACTION throws his hat in too
Jan-that's probably for the best
LoshkiJan-: did you *really* describe someone as "mentally unstable" and suggest "nobody should have anything to do with him"?
Sculptorias_ss, and when there's chat, 75% of the time it's guesswork, pasting google finds, and a blind leading the blind
redrabbitACTION ignores the quit/join messages
Jan-I'm using a beta version of icechat I downloaded in 2013
Sculptori remember that crapy irc client written in VB
Jan-which one?
Jan-Not sure it's vb
CasperDoes anyone here know about link aggregation under linux? And possibly how to work with non-compilant switch?
Jan-it does bring up weird error messages that suggest it's some sort of interpreted thing
cheaterhey Jan-
Jan-hey cheater
Sculptorit is. i remember joining icechat support channel to report bugs. ended up with the dev kicking me out
cheaternot surprised, you're not exactly charming Sculptor
Jan-poor Sculptor
Jan-you be nice
Sculptormy client has reported that a shady character called 'cheater' is paging me
Sculptori can't see his text, though
Jan-I get thrown out of open source friendly channels for the same reason though :)
spludanyone remember when MS first unleashed VB on the world and all sorts of goombas throught they were programmers because they could write something that would bring your 386 computer to its knees just presenting you with a dialog?
Jan-I'm not sure it's quite that bad
Jan-I quite like C#
LuminaxWksplud: you mean when the world were suddenly swarmed with 10000000000000+ 'hackers' creating their 'leet' VB viruses ?
SculptorJan-, have you had a privilege to use Microsoft's Comic Chat
spludWhen VB first came out, it was especially atrocious.
Jan-I always thought the vb language was pretty ugly itself
Jan-regardless of performance
Jan-just the syntax was a bit nasty
spludThere's that too, but VB was
Jan-c# is a bit nicer
Jan-but then I'm used to javascript so c# is more what I'm used to
LuminaxWkJan-: they took was was simple and sort of okay into a poor attempt at being 'sophisticated' and fell flat on its face
spludwasn't .net back in the day, and its design really encouraged people to do things like polling loops and such.
Jan-LuminaxWk: in what sense
spludWhat sucked was that every so often you'd find something that was supposed to accomplish something you needed done, and then after you had downloaded it, you discovered that it was in VB.
spludthe runtime was a hog. is better I think
Jan-though I have very little time with classic vb
Jan-like way back in 1997 I think I did two courses with it
angangaanything called visual is evil
spludvisual studio wasn't such a bad IDE. In the day.
LuminaxWkJan-: BASIC was an a-okay programming language, most of the time integrated into the computer itself with a firmware 'compiler' that reads and interprets the BASIC codes
spludI even paid money for an extension from an outfit called "Whole Tomato Software".
spludthe name kinda stuck in my head.
Jan-LuminaxWk: 10 PRINT "JAN IS SKILL"
Jan-20 GOTO 10
spludNext release of VS, they'd basically stolen all the cool stuff the guy had implemented.
LuminaxWkwhen speed picks up and abstraction becomes more and more relevant, most people migrate to C/C++ with proper compiler
Jan-which is less abstraction :
Sculptori had 3 energetic drinks
Sculptorno wonder i'm not sleepy, and it's 1:47 am
LuminaxWkand then Microsoft says "hey, BASIC was popular, let's go revisit those and put our brand on it"
spludit's nearing 6pm here, and I was just a while ago realizing I had a little something at breakfast time, and nothing since.
LuminaxWk"oh I know, let's make it integrated into the OS!"
spludAnd I've been up since 0200 today.
Sculptorit's almost 2am
LuminaxWkso they went back into the barebone form of a programming language on top of what supposed to be a sophisticated abstraction layer
angangaand that folks is .net
LuminaxWkwhich is a bit like hiring a bus driver to drive your limousine
Sculptorsplud, when you are doing an interesting work, you forget about taking some food
Jan-I'm not sure how well it was integrated
Jan-it was the whole COM thing
LuminaxWkSculptor: I've once coded from morning time and then I realized I was hungry
Jan-which is sort of useful but kinda slow and hoggy
LuminaxWk....only it was dinner time already :o
Sculptorthere you go
LuminaxWkJan-: how well? very fucking poor ;)
angangaCOM was one thing DCOM was the fun part
LuminaxWkas befit of Microsoft
Jan-on the other hand I have found .net quite good
Jan-I wrote some code to write uncompressed 10-bit hd video frames to files
Jan-quite high performance stuff
Jan-it worked OK
LuminaxWkJan-: it is quite good, in fact I love how short a time you need to take to totally 'explode' the code
LuminaxWkACTION sighs
LuminaxWknot to mention its wonderful implementation of Serial port...
Jan-oh I hit that
LuminaxWkSerial~(); doesn't properly kill the accessing thread
Jan-I think I had to use a third party widget to get serial stuff
Jan-or was that WSH
LuminaxWkleaving you with a hanging serial port access that takes a while to time out
Jan-I was putting all of the frame data, about 12mb a frame at 25 frames per second, through the clr
Jan-it dealt fine
Jan-I think we concluded it was probably about 30% more memory hungry than a native solution would have been
Jan-but it was fast enough
Jan-we did have to do some direct invoking of disk stuff.
Jan-or well I didn't have to
Jan-but it had a lot better performance
Jan-if that makes sense
Crackigawd this lock is worn out
Crackijust have to rake it a few times and it's open
Crackihear the springs when I'm turning it
spludI had a contract a few years back, working on the internals of a windows debugger. The "specification" such as it was was that I needed to produce a breakpoint management engine in C++.
spludThe other code to interact with it wasn't there yet, so in order to test/develop my own stuff, I needed to write enough framework to make use of it.
spludI did what I felt was a great job. And then found out that "C++" somehow meant "COM" interface.
spludDCOM doesn't support all the things you might do with a C++ class.
spludI had a lot of interface rework...
spludI find the hard stuff is the more interesting stuff to work on.
spludThat job involved runtime disassembly, single step, step into/over/out logic, multithreaded breakpoints, hardware and software breakpoints, symbol lookup, etc.
Bird|otherboxsplud, yeah. that could really bite you hard if you were doing stuff in standard-library style
spludIn order to resume after a software breakpoint, you need to restore the original instruction and single step to the next so that after hitting the next instruction, you can restore the software breakpoint again.
spludBut having thread-specific breakpoint support, etc was cool.
spludand the complex logic for when a breakpoint should officially trigger (I mean, the processor gets there and stops, but the debugger then determines if it should automatically resume or actually open up a console because conditions are met).
spludImagine running a debugger against something running on a client system and gettng an sms while you're at lunch that the condition you were waiting for has triggered...
Bird|otherboxsplud, that'd be handy for debugging things that happen once in a blue moon
Bird|otherboxattach debugger, set trap, wait :)
tgeekyam I still the only person in here with a 1054z?
ZeroWalkeranyone know how to run a bash script on the server via a html button click?
jaakkostgeeky: nope
tgeekyjaakkos: do you notice that sometimes, it slows down by itself? That is to say: sometimes, without doing anything really silly with settings, when I go to the shorest timebase it still has an updaterate of like 1/s
tgeekyreset just fixes it entirely
Bird|otherboxtgeeky, you are not, but I have not noticed that
jaakkosit shows different timebase but still updates every onec per sec?
jaakkosis the UI laggy as well or?
jaakkosbut yeah I haven't noticed
tgeekyjaakkos: yeah, well actually in hindsight I'm not sure what it's showing, because the result after reboot looks so different.
tgeekyit's far too thin of a line to be the correct timebase
tgeekyI'll try and get some pictures of it happening
jaakkosdoes it happen easily
tgeekyit just seems to happen when I leave the scope for a long time, like nearly a day
tgeekybut still running
jaakkosoh i never run it that long
tgeekyah, ok. It's at my desk here so I often leave it running
jaakkosi wonder if the firmware has memory leaks or so :)
tgeekywould not surprise me. I *really* really wish we could get them to open source it, perhaps even promise to do so at EOL
tgeekythere is so much stuff you could do hacking on it
jaakkosmaybe contact their support?
jaakkosand/or check for new firmware
tgeekyanyway, there's a trick that I only learned recently, and I don't know if it's typical with other scopes or not, but basically you know how when you go to a longer timebase (say, 200ms/div or longer), it seems to wait a while before updating the trace; you can actually get rid of this (this is RUN mode); just move the horizontal trigger point to 1 pixel/line (yes, really needs to be just one setting or two) left of the far-left side of the scree
tgeekyit will basically never go into RUN and it will always be updating the trace
tgeekyit doesn't really bother me, since there is another thing the 1054z lacks (not a huge deal, but...) which is a system default; i would never start using the scope after a long time without defaulting; unfortunately the only way i know to do this is OFF/ON
tgeeky(and even in this situation, it's an option: you can also make poweron settings to go to LAST which I only sparingly use)
jaakkoshmm you can reset to defaults from a menu
cheaterdefaults? what, you mean when i pull out the time base and vertical amplifier?
tgeekyjaakkos: so you can, system -> [Button6]
cheateri've got a huge box full of those
tgeekyjaakkos: i'm not sure if i trust it; but this will give me something new to try next time it slows on me
tgeekyi absolutely love this thing though
cheateroh you mean one of those newfangled "digital" dealies
jaakkostgeeky: utility -> defaults (button6) i guess that's what you're saying
tgeekyoh yeah it is on storage. hah. i can't see those buttons because of a shadow at my desk
jaakkostgeeky: you could check out firmware from here
jaakkosin "downloads". it appears you have to fill in a silly form first
tgeekyjaakkos: i'm running 1 version behind at the momemt I'm not sure I want to upgrade
jaakkosI wonder if the riglol keygen works for the new firmware as well :)
tgeekyit does
tgeekyit's worked for every firmware so far
tgeekyit would be *huge* news if it no longer worked
tgeeky(i actually find it kind of funny when people ask if it still works...) I am thinking ... that would be the single biggest topic on eevblog ever if it were broken
tgeekylike, rigol actually defeated it and invalidated it
jaakkosI wonder if using riglol invalidates warranty. could be Rigol publishing it themselves, give users some features and invalidate their warranty ;)
tgeekyjaakkos: it also does not
tgeekyit has been demonstrated several times (though never proven any times) that rigol can't tell if you uninstall the key, ship it in, get unit back)
tgeekyjaakkos: actually, i just took a measurement that I don't remember being correct, wonder if you can duplicate
tgeekyany channel, probe in 1x mode, (1x or 10x software setting doesn't matter), on probe compensation pin, go to any ranges you can below the relay click (2.00V, 1.00V)
tgeekythe signal I see is a square wave which appears to be starting/hovering at 5V
tgeekyoh i guess i could just screenshot this :/
tgeekyjaakkos: one sec, I'll prepare a screenshot
tgeekyjaakkos: -> the probe is on the calibration signal, it's in 1x selection switch
tgeekyit appears the low attenuation range on my scope has a ~ 388mV offset, or the calibrator has an offset
tgeekyactually, no, the offset I'm seeing is range-depednent
DocScrutinizer05firmware update rigol 10xxZ? yes, the rigol official site requests filling in a stupid form, but you can get the firmware elsewhere
tawri look away for 2 damn seconds
DocScrutinizer05google helps
tgeekyin 200 mV/div it's 144mV
tgeekyDocScrutinizer05: i was going to say that, but I can't be asked to find the URL so I didn't bother
DoYouKnowtesting some gravitational wave experiments right now
tgeekyDoYouKnow: we don't believe you, FYI
tgeekyi mean, don't let that dissuade you for god's sakes
DocScrutinizer05((riglol keygen works for the new firmware)) would be very much trouble for them to fix that, it's based on some "encryption" in all of their deployed firmwares, so they had to break backward compatibility
tgeekyDocScrutinizer05: presumably though they could just write new software that uses some other method for auth
tgeekywho knows
tgeekyi think people would notice if they actually included an updated firmware though
johntramphi, i have heard spi is better than i2c for low power devices, is this true?
Bird|otherboxjohntramp, it can be. integrate the total energy to make the comparison
DocScrutinizer05well, the new firmware still needs to use the persistent storage feature flags in scope to determine which featureset is enabled. worst case you had to downgrade to old firmware, then enable new features and upgrade again
tgeekyDocScrutinizer05: downgrading isn't possible for almost everybody (except certain people with an older bootloader)
DocScrutinizer05yeah, probably
johntrampBird|otherbox: well sure, but I only want to implement it once
johntrampif it is known fact that spi has less current draw (no pullups) then I shouldn't need to make that comparison myself
Bird|otherboxwell, it's not a factor of the pullups per se
Bird|otherboxit's that SPI can consume less energy by dint of being faster = takes way less time to get the job done
ketassome lovely online shops resell the 0.70 EUR mp1584 board as 2.50 EUR
ketashave to get money from somewhere after all :P
ketasi'm sure they get it below 0.70 too
tgeekyjohntramp: so to make such a general argument you have to basically argue by removing/controlling all factors that you can, and determing which factors you can't control, and determining which factors are genuinely different
tgeekyjohntramp: so, speed of SPI is genuinely different
tgeekyjohntramp: if you can completely control the definition of the bus in terms of low and high levels, then you can always choose to minimize the number of pullups in the state that the bus is in most often
tgeekyin other words, if your signal acts like it is a square wave with a duty cycle of 95% then you can choose for that to be 0 or 1, 95% of the time
tgeekywhichever is most efficient
johntrampso even when using a hardware implementation of spi/i2c, where the cpu can sleep during the comms, is it still more efficient to increase the bus rate?
DocScrutinizer05anyway it's really not exactly trivial to fix this issue even with new firmware, since the new firmware afaik isn't encrypted so could get disassembled to RE the key verification algo. So when it doesn't reliably fix "the issue" (of hacking their scopes) anyway, why should rigol bother to try? I guess they make netter business rather than worse, with the hacking possible
DocScrutinizer05better even
tgeekyi was going to say keep netter
tgeekysounds like they got into a tennis side game business
jaakkostgeeky: looks same to me at 200mV
jaakkosduh I also noticed my calibration is pretty bad atm
Crackitgeeky, x1 probe switch has different impedance. that can make a difference
tgeekyCracki: but but I didn't know impedence differences can change offsets!?
Crackidunno, maybe?
Crackiturn some knobs
tgeekydoes that even make sense
DocScrutinizer05commercial users would never hack the scope, and private users will decide to buy a rigol instead of one of their competitors' products *because* of the hacking option, and itS' not like they would shell out the money for the official upgrade if that option didn't exist
Crackialso, that signal is clipped heavily... maybe not such a good idea to measure like this
theBearconductors don't exist remember, only tiny resistors, plus yer a-d input stage is probly crazy high impedance in anything like a scope or meter frontend, and i'm tempted to mention something bout r-c, but unless the calibration slate is 100khz+ that ain't real likely
tgeekytheBear: cal is 1kHz
Crackioh wait there's an actual offset, not just a slightly odd plateau on the rectangle signal!
tgeekyCracki: yeah
Crackizum fick
tgeekyit's hovering above ground
DocScrutinizer05((<tgeeky> am I still the only person in here with a 1054z?)) wel, mine isn't a 1054z anymore ;-) it says 1104
Crackiprobe that thing with another scope?
Crackiis the ground attached?
theBeartgeeky, mmm, i was trying to sound kinda sarcastic, guess i didn't hit the keys hard enough <grin>
MrTrickI'm trying to drive a 3W led from a TLC5947 channel. It's a current sink driver, but only rated at max 30mA. Any suggestions on how to safely drive it?
tgeekyCracki: i checked that, doesn't matter
CrackiMrTrick, transistor
theBearMrTrick, maybe use the tlc with/to-drive a external, what he said
MrTricksure, but the led needs its current limited, no?
tgeekyDocScrutinizer05: huh, I didn't know the name changed
Viper-7fwiw, you can team together channels on those TLC chips
tgeekyDocScrutinizer05: that means yours has... the function gen in it, right?
MrTricka resistor that (power-dissapation) large seems wrong...
Crackiexplain that 3W led
MrTrickViper-7: thanks, but I don't have enough spare to do that.
tgeekyjaakkos: : ok, if yours is the same I guess it's OK, even though I still don't understand it.
MrTrickvfd ~4V I guess, 0.8-1A full on current?
DocScrutinizer05it just been pimped
Crackitransistor, mosfet,
Crackithose pwm things aren't meant to drive lots
Viper-7the current limiting on the TLC chips is also basically just a resistor
Crackithey're good enough to drive mosfets directly
MrTrickalso if it's a sink then it'd need a resistor pullup?
tgeekyjaakkos: i blew out and repaired my CH1 input, so I'm always very skeptical of anything unusual I see (even though this happens on every channel, who knows)
Crackihas it pushpull?
Viper-7(actually a transistor driven with a set base current, but hey)
MrTrickor it might be push-pull, doesn't say.
tgeekyDocScrutinizer05: how about that, mine does too. I never noticed that.
theBeartgeeky, it IS worth double-checking yer calibration signal.. it can be surprising how often they ain't nearly as rock solid and exactly 1v p-p as they sposed to be, i have found over the years
tgeekytheBear: aye, I don't know what it's "supposed" to be; and I don't have any other scopes, only spectrum analysis stuff that can't handle an offset
MrTrickhmm, maybe I'll just check the output signal from the tlc5947 and see if it's going to work straight into a FET.
Crackiif not, pullup resistor
Crackithe faster the pwm rate, the smaller that pullup should be
Viper-7it wont be push-pull output - so you can drive a BJT, or yeah add a pull-up resistor to drive a FET gate
Crackiif you have a bjt for that kinda load
Crackiyeah use a fet
DocScrutinizer05tgeeky: what's the issue with that offset?
tgeekyDocScrutinizer05: I just don't understand if it's really there or not, or if it's supposed to be
Crackicalibrate it away then
Crackiif you probe ground, is there an offset too?
Crackitake an arduino and make it do PWM. do you see an offset there too?
DocScrutinizer05switch channel to GND and there's your zero line. switch to DC and if there's a skip then that's a "problem"
tgeekyCracki: no; and I can't change anything about the probe compensation signal afaik
tgeekyDocScrutinizer05: nope, the GND line is at the same marker as the zero
tgeekyi have a function generator, I can try to make the exact same signal that way
Crackiworth a try, but do independently test that 1 khz pattern from the scope
jaakkostgeeky: dunno where that 144mV offset is coming from though... at least not from the RC circuit with 13pF capacitance
Crackia multimeter with peak/min/max might be good enough to tell
theBeartgeeky, 99/100 scopes across the board, the cal/test signal is 1v p-p (or is it 1v-up/1v-down (2v p-p that would be) nah, 1v p-p sounds right,) and 1khz square
DocScrutinizer05I don't really think the 1kHz is meant to calibrate sensitivity, it's just to tune probes
tgeekytheBear: yeah, the ampltiude isn't really important, but it does appear to be 3Vpp here
tgeekyDocScrutinizer05: i'm not worried about that; but I just *assumed* that the calibration signal is at offset +100% from AC, or in other words, it goes from 0.00V to some height (3.0V, apparently)
tgeekybut even to see the offset change when I change the 1x/10x setting is bizzare; I would expect the offsets to be identical
DocScrutinizer05though I found those 1kHz to be usually withing specs of what they write in the boilerplate, it's not really calibrated
theBearif you just checking calibration/multiplier stuff and yer stuck, you should be able to do it with just a meter and a dc voltage, a battery even should be pretty darned good over the few seconds between a high impedance meter measuring it and the high impedance scope probe measuring the same
CrackiI'd say the a/d needs tweaking
DocScrutinizer05theBear: AC or DC coupling?
Crackiperhaps a few counts off
DocScrutinizer05and yes, I *think* / seem to recall it's a 0V +1V signal
DocScrutinizer05though - as I stated - I never really cared since it's for probe calibration only
DocScrutinizer05probe calinration means you tune that tiny capacitor to get no overshots nor rounded corners on the square wave
theBearDocScrutinizer05, c'mon maaaaaan, you can answer thgat
Crackithere's more wrong than just that cap
tgeekythat cap isn't even involved, since i have the probe in 1x mode
tgeekyi built the same signal with my generator, and it shows exactly the same thing at every setting
Crackican you reproduce in x10 mode
tgeekythere is no offset in 10x mode
Crackican you reproduce on any channel?
tgeekyCracki: yep
Cracki_NO_ offset or no perceptible one?
tgeekyCracki: there's no offset
Crackitake a different probe, not a sibling probe
theBearif i wasn't sposed to be doing chores already, i'd go warm up my proper old-fashioned scope next door and check for yer, you know, the one that takes maybe 20 or 30 seconds for the screen to come on properly, but that also doesn't have an !infuriating! delay between probing something and seeing a result <grin> but i obviously ain't got 30 or 45 seconds to spare :)
tgeekyCracki: ehhh, maybe the tiniest of offsets maybe 10mV
DocScrutinizer05theBear: which question? DC 'calibration'? Yes exactly like you say, use an arbitrary voltage source, ideally a battery, and compare to readut of a good DMM
Cracki_feed something into the bnc port directly, no probe.
tgeekyCracki_: there we go that's one i haven't done
Cracki_be gentle to the bnc port ;)
Cracki_I might have missed some lines: do you have other probes to test?
Cracki_are they siblings?
theBearDocScrutinizer05, just re: what the standard "every scope got one" 1khz square cal signal looks like, if it goes + or both sides of zero, etc etc
tgeekyCracki_: direct BNC function generator (which produces 3Vpp square wave, 1khz, with +100% offset) into scope shows exact same offset (388mV)
Cracki_that scope must have calibration
DocScrutinizer05theBear: sorry, I never really bothered, I tend to calibrate my probes in AC coupling
tgeekyCracki_: it has been self-called fairly recently
tgeekyi have no problem running it again, I just wanted someone else to see if something could be wrong
DocScrutinizer05theBear: or rather, don't-care-coupling
tgeekyjaakkos: was your scope floating or grounded
DocScrutinizer05and if there been "a DC-bias" then I noticed and immediately ignored it
jaakkostgeeky: floating
tgeekyCracki_: I do have one more probe, 100x non-selectable
tgeekyjaakkos: aha, that could be it!
tgeekymine is too
DocScrutinizer05theBear: I had to unpack my rigol to check
DocScrutinizer05if you *really* want to know then I could do that... eventually
LuminaxWkACTION pokes Viper-7 
Crackifor selfcal I'd recommend shorting probe tip to probe gnd
Cracki(I'm again missing some lines, it'll happen a few more times I'm afraid)
tgeekyCracki_: as opposed to just leaving unconnected
tgeekyas specified in manual/self-cal screens
Crackiit's calibrating zero point
Crackiit's gonna be floating
CrackiI'm sure they will not drive the probe tip to any voltage or current
tgeekyjaakkos: grounding the scope out did not make any difference
DocScrutinizer05I think the sciope hardware takes care about everything, and the interactive instructions about the rest :-)
jaakkostgeeky: right, I can't ground mine easily, the wiring here is meh
tgeekythe key issue here is really that the offset changes when the attenuator turns on/off
Crackihas autocal been done at x10 or at x1?
tgeekyCracki: well, autocal has been done as the thing says, with no probes attached
theBearDocScrutinizer05, i probably checked it at times like this (satisfy memory/curiosity) as many times as i ever "used it" in all my years of recreational and 'professional+fulltime' scope usery, maybe 2 or 3, but sometimes if you i dunno, wanna idiot-check a probe that maybe seems to have a broken divider switch on it, or pfft, maybe yer on an unfamiliar scope and just wanna sanity-check you are at the divider you want, and haven't missed some
theBearext-Y-axis or variable-adjust-div setting ... so mmm, i'd say maybe 5 ot 8 times outta curiosity/memory, and 2 or 3 i actually "needed" it <grin> lucky they put one on almost every scope eh ?
DocScrutinizer05tgeeky: wait, now I think I got what you are talking about
Crackithis manual in front of me says to attach a probe
Crackiand calibrate the probe like that
Crackiso perhaps that's not self cal but probe cal
tgeekyCracki: that is "probe compensation signal" yeah
theBearheh, gonna be tricky to calibrate it while it ain't connected to the scope <grin>
tgeekyself-cal says (it actually pops up and says: disconnect all inputs)
Crackino no, there's not just tuning the cap to get a flat response
Crackithere's "probe calibration"
Crackiand it doesn't mention tuning any caps in the probe body
Crackithat's for the zero point, which is your problem
theBearpfffft ! i just can't put any faith in a scope that not only has a massive un-nerving delay between input and displaying anything, then claims to be capable of calibrating itself, but needs me to help by unplugging things <cheeky grin>
DocScrutinizer05Cracki: I only find *digital* probe calibration
Crackieh, try it
tgeekylol and I don't see the phrase "probe calibration" at any point, except where it says: The signal output from the probe compensation connector can only be used for
tgeekyprobe compensation adjustment and can not be used for calibration.
Crackisee that?
jaakkosthat RPL1116 probe is totally different
tgeekyyeah, i don't have it either
jaakkosit's a logic probe for models that have the logic analyzer
tgeekyi would run it if i could find it in the menu
theBeari'd think yer cap-compensation stuff would have to be beyond brokenly outta-cal. for anything useful to show on a 1khz signal, even if it was the squarest square edges ever generated ... i mean, pfft to probe capacitance at those kinda audible freqs, that stuff don't become even close to an issue till you at least a hundred plus times higher than that
Crackiah, that's a logic probe
LuminaxWkAli's search is fucking up hard lately
Crackihm, guess you can't calibrate this scope in this way
LuminaxWkalso... fuck seller who use unrelated keywords in their title/description >_>
LuminaxWkif I wanted PL2303 I'll SEARCH for PL2303...
ketassome crazy one has mirrored the photo of pcb on ebay
ketasi rotated and rotated and still couldn't read the text
tgeekyok so I've more or less figured it out
LuminaxWkketas: "to prevent plagiarising" ? :P
tgeekyand a comment Cracki, I think, said long ago, is the answer
ketasLuminaxWk: i have no idea
ketaspins say ni and /\cc
LuminaxWkmeh... anyway
tgeekyCracki: this offset is an artifact of the very severe clipping
nullifieris anyone making a cheap USB3 scope yet?
tgeekyCracki: if I take my fungen, and start with the smallest setting, and work it up, the offset goes is gone, goes negative, then goes positive again, then goes severely positive
Crackihowever I'm not sure if it's really the clipping...
DocScrutinizer05theBear: no, that 1kHz square wave has harminucs quite up a few MHz
LuminaxWkwhy the hell don't E14 and RS stock Silicon Labs product? fffff
Crackiok then
ketas02adc on relay
LuminaxWkthat sounds Fun
Crackimake shrooms with a shroom
jaakkostgeeky: I'm noob to scopes, but is it actually guaranteed that waveforms display correctly if they clip on top/bottom?
Crackitgeeky, so "smallest setting" means amplitude?
tgeekyjaakkos: apparently not, which has been what this exercise has all been about
tgeekyjaakkos: there are one (or two?) extra divisions above and below the screen you see which are captured
Crackigood to know this actually happens. I was always just careful without a concrete reason.
LuminaxWkE14 DOES stock CP2102, however searching for CP2102 turned no match?
nullifieryour earch was too specific
LuminaxWkhmmm....did I search for CP2012? I wonder
LuminaxWkACTION checks history
theBear2012 ?
nullifierACTION mitm hax LuminaxWk
LuminaxWkoh... yes.... yes I fucking did >_>
LuminaxWkACTION headdesks
theBeartry one of their clone identical websites with any of their various less-stupid less-overnight-surprise-changed names ? heh nah, won't change a thing, just saw a chance to throw in a personal opinion :)
LuminaxWkI'm not surprised that E14 doesn't stock 'Prolific's PL2303, but Silicon Labs is another story
tgeekyjaakkos: so the oscilloscope screen shows 8 vertical divisions; it uses 200 of the 256 samples to display those 8 vertical divisions.
LuminaxWktheBear: hmm ?
LuminaxWkAli? or E14?
tgeekyin other words, each division contains 25 voltage steps; therefore there is 1 extra division at the top and bottom of the screen, plus 3 extra steps each
tgeekyjaakkos: as long as you stay within that space, then everything should be normal
theBearLuminaxWk, i'm bitter 'bout how my country was their test-market first for the new name (oh, farnells/newark i mean), and how we had no option for the alternate names (that i had grown to like and trust over many years of professional customer-ing) but i think most of all, the way that the new name came with a "social networking aspect" added to their whole deal, and further how asshat dave was the first asshat they promoted at my sternly
theBearnon-social-networking ass when i was trying to do sensible things like order electronics :)
tgeekyCracki: I do love the double edged sword of doing this kind of thing that we just did here (exploring this 'bug' which wasn't). On the one hand, it's a waste of time. On the other hand, I did learn *something*, so that's nice
Bird|otherboxtgeeky, it's not a waste of time if you learn from it :)
Crackinow WHY does this happen?
tgeekyCracki: that is at a level of ADC magic that I'm prepared to not learn right now
Crackialways prepared
Crackito not learn :D
tgeekypresumably because their ADC code doesn't quite handle these end cases, and instead just dumps data into memory
tgeekywhere it's interpreted incorrectly by a later stage of decoding
LuminaxWktheBear: I think that's what comes with merger/glomping
tgeekyi figure you can't have sophisticated logic and pattern matching on an ADC which runs at 1GS/s
jaakkostgeeky: if you adjust voltage on your siggen, does the problem suddenly correct itself when you put low enough amplitude?
LuminaxWkthings you've come to familiarize yourself with and become accustomed to/trusted is suddenly turned into this unknown entity
tgeekyjaakkos: yep! more or less. I haven't done a test so precise that it's 1 or 2 lines accurate, but yeah
theBearfortunately, i was soon after forced into retirement, so i no longer have to deal with any of their overnight massive branding-shift new-age tomfoolery, or even the moral and personal implications of continuing to throw all the electronics orders i am/was responsible for at them, or someone else like rs, who saw no need to mess with a good thing, and had the same name and branding since before i was born, i do believe ;-)
theBearLuminaxWk, merger ? who bought farnells ?
DocScrutinizer05theBear: tgeeky: ok now you got me curious. min:-40mV, top: 3.01V, Vpp_3.12V
LuminaxWkhuh? didn't they sort of merged ?
Bird|otherboxno, wasn't a merger or a glomping, just a rename
Crackiif it's going over _and_ under while increasing the amplitude from the function generator, it's probably something way early
Crackisome saturation effect perhaps
LuminaxWkoh... I was sure it was a merger... probably just me
LuminaxWkbut eh, considering that they're the ONLY online electronic store at my place who offers next day delivery, I really can't complain >_>
theBearsidenote asshat-dave==eevblog dave, for various mostly personal reasons (tho not all ones that i created personally, he dug his own hole re: that nickname i use consistantly for him)
CrackiI imagine they use flash adcs, nothing else is likely to do 1 GS/s
LuminaxWkRS gives a standard 3-4 business days delivery
LuminaxWktheBear: I was right then ;P
LuminaxWkoh, I didn't type it out >_> oh well
LuminaxWkhow did they push dave onto you anyway? I'm a little puzzled on that aspect
Crackiso, well, perhaps some amplification stage's offset is seriously whacked by the signal range
theBearmmm, apparently the local rs trade-counter/warehouse/depot here, maybe 10 mins drive from anywhere remotely close to the city/cbd, well within a standard metro courier distance, was the very first and orignal one where they first opened so long ago, so no problems there, pretty sure farnells only local-ish warehouse ta the time was still a 4-6hr jet flight across the country
LuminaxWkRS also have a trade counter/warehouse here, but they somehow doesn't offer next day delivery
tgeekyCracki: i think you're right, except delta-sigma ADCs can go much faster than flash
tgeekydelta-sigma is king, not flash
LuminaxWkE14/Farnell/Newark, on the other hand, stocks most of its item in Singapore, but still manages to make the next day delivery
LuminaxWk99.99% of the time...
DocScrutinizer05theBear: tgeeky^^^
tgeekyDocScrutinizer05: more or less the same result here
LuminaxWkthere was one time I close an order 30 minutes before the day's cut-off, and didn't receive my order the next day... but then again..
tgeekymine is 3.00 and -40.0 mV
LuminaxWkACTION shrugs
DocScrutinizer05this is what attaching probe to 1kHz and then pressing "auto" gives me
LuminaxWktgeeky: huh? isn't Flash... like...technologically the fastest?
DocScrutinizer05and my beloved rigol-screenshot script of course ;-)
LuminaxWkor theoretically
tgeekyDocScrutinizer05: yep. ideally you would use more of the screen (and hence the ADC) to make that measurement,
DocScrutinizer05meh, rigol ADC is 8bit only anyway, afaik
tgeekyDocScrutinizer05: yeah, typical for most non-modern scopes
tgeekythe most cutting edge scopes now are moving to 10- or 12-bit, except the exceptionally fast ones
tgeekywhich will have an ENOB of 7.8 bits or so, so 8.
tgeekyLuminaxWk: uhh, I'm not sure how to answer that question because it doesn't include noise performance; once you start trying to make an ADC that has acceptable quantization noise performance, flash becomes less preferred
LuminaxWkdue to non-existant feedback ?
theBearLuminaxWk, my dislike of certain aspects about him and what/how he does his eevblog thing was already formed, and it was just coincidence/local-proximity (he's from this country, with its tiny-ish electronics community, professionally speaking at least,) that they chose to feature him the first week or so of the whole new site/name/social-website-etc... but that wasn't the big thing, big thing was and still is my opinion of anything social and
theBearnetworking related beyond irc really.... for a bunch of reasons i ain't got time to get into today (yeah, like my anti *duino-related rant, i'll get it all written succinctly and on a sanely naamed webpage "soon enough" ;-] ) i'm very against everything from yer classic web-based/post-nntp-style forums, right thru to yer new age mybook/friendface/etc style all-encompassing "social network" stuff, for a bunch of reasons, some very practical and
theBeartechnically based, and others more about choosing not to associate even a little bit with something i seen facilitate so very much stupidity and ass-hattery that otherwise would never have possibly occured :-]
tgeekyLuminaxWk: so with flash ADCs, the quantization noise is spread evenly throughout the sampled frequency range (naturally)
tgeekyLuminaxWk: this results in the famous equation 6.06dB * N(umber of bits) + 1.77 dB for a sine wave input
tgeekythe quantization noise and the signal are naturally seperated (in frequency) by delta-sigma ADCs and shifted upward
tgeekywhere they are then filtered out with a lowpass
tgeekyLuminaxWk: oversampling and decimation are involved here, too
tgeekyi forget where you attribute each aspect of it, one sec
DocScrutinizer05<3 rigol-screenshot ~/tmp/calib.jpg
tgeekyDocScrutinizer05: even better is to use Rigol Bilshimpcoasodiff, which lets you just take screen captures as fast as the scope will let you
LuminaxWktheBear: I don't use social networking all that much either... a big part of them are now very poisonous :|
tgeekyso you can make videos
DocScrutinizer05tgeeky: never seen
DocScrutinizer05tgeeky: and I doubt the rigol cheesy GUI processor and the supposedly I2C bus to the sampling ASIC allow for any such framerate
tgeekyDocScrutinizer05: you can get about 3-5fps which actually works quite nicely
theBearLuminaxWk, very good, you showing all the signs of a wise and uncompromising err, dude (guy if yer prefer, ya know, entity-person) ... i approve
LuminaxWkACTION shrugs
tgeekyDocScrutinizer05: i took this:
tgeekyDocScrutinizer05: although *that* is a time lapse over 1 hour
LuminaxWkI entered the internet late in 1996 or around that, by that time 'ICQ' was the 'social networking' of choice
LuminaxWk...didn't take into that one either
DocScrutinizer05hmm, never tried what a while true; do rigol-snapshot $(date).jpg; done would give me
LuminaxWkDocScrutinizer05: probably freeze your scope ?
tgeekyDocScrutinizer05: all of those captures are as-fast-as-possible
theBearheh, the more i hear about this self-calibration stuff on these scopes, the less wise or likely-to-work-well it is sounding
MeadICQ ended up as fail. Many have came and went, IRC is still here and being used
DocScrutinizer05LuminaxWk: why?
tgeekytheBear: there was no problem with my scope
LuminaxWkeh.... infinite loop?
tgeekytheBear: the cal signal is fine also, the problem was I was clipping the signal so severely that offseting artifacts were introduced
LuminaxWkmost of the time, infinite loop in a finite resource system is a bad idea
DocScrutinizer05theBear: ack, I'm pretty reluctant to run that
LuminaxWkof course most MCU runs on infinite loop, which is why you have to manage your resources very very carefully :3
LuminaxWkdid I say most? I mean all
theBeartgeeky, nevertheless, just scanning teh facts mentioned here the last 20 mins or so regarding how/what it does, seem to add potential errors or mistakes of some kind with every stat
CCFL_ManMead: aim lasted longer than icq
tgeekyDocScrutinizer05: what interface does that program use by default? For Rigol Bildschrimpirkerirjoiasdf, if you use etherenet and request 'as fast as possible', then you get about 1 screenshot every other second. If you use USB and go as fast as possible, you go *faster* than the scope can handle (it will give up updating certain screen elements), and it will take about 4 to 5 screenshots/second
DocScrutinizer05LuminaxWk: I run that sort of "infinite loop" all the time in my shell, and it usually doesn't freeze my PC, so why would it freeze my network-attached scope?
tpw_rulestgeeky: ok what the fuck are you talking about
tgeekytheBear: I am not aware of any, I think you're jumping to conclusions based on us misinerpreting what we were seeing
tgeekythere is no problem with the probe compensation signal
tgeekytpw_rules: be more specific? the software name?
DocScrutinizer05tgeeky: per default uses tcp
tgeekyDocScrutinizer05: yep, that is surely going to be slower than the USB capture method
LuminaxWkBildschrimpirkerirjoiasdf <--
LuminaxWkACTION thumbs up
tgeekyLuminaxWk: yeah, I can't remember how to spell the fucking word
tgeekyso I just trail off by smashing the keyboard
tgeekyRigol Bildschirmkopie
LuminaxWkjust bildsch ?
LuminaxWkor just Bild :P
LuminaxWkACTION wonders what that means in what seems to be German
theBearpfft, all them gui-messenger things from yer icq and msn thru yer professional/corporate targeted jabber's and such, were but a silly-looking flash in teh pan in the eyes of the irc dedicated <grin> if anything they helped keep the riff-raff outta irc, cos ya know, you had to think and maybe select at least one thing by hand to get onto irc, heh, totally unreasonable entry barrier eh ?
tgeekyI think it means something like screenshot
LuminaxWktheBear: the old glorious EFNET? :P
LuminaxWkI remember WebMaster's ConferenceRoom >_>
theBearefnet and undernet were my first introductions to this world of plaintext wonder ! course initially even a computer-head programmer electronics type (me) hadn't even heard of this internet word, so my local bbs was kind enough to give me a irc-ii client via a nice serial-port gateway from the main bbs to the magical and initially baffling "Please choose a nick: " or similar prompt <grin> course that was many years before this new fangled
theBearfreenode thing was imagined, or this country/continent had its very own irc network :-)
DocScrutinizer05there's also rigol-waveform
DocScrutinizer05same site/location
DocScrutinizer05sort of WIP, I didn't really finish it
LuminaxWkAusIRC ?
theBearanyway, enough wasting time, repeatedly mentioning in excessive detail how i ain't got time to spare today <grin> i'm off, get some chores done and what-not
theBearcourse it's glory days came and went probly a couple decades ago now <grin>
theBearhave fun, remind me next time, i always like a good tech-dark-ages reminisce
CCFL_MantheBear: there was a serial gateway to irc on the bbs?
tgeekyDocScrutinizer05: it occurs to me that I've never actually uploaded any of my full-speed captures.
tgeekyI will do one now to show a tip I mentioned earlier, and show you
ketas"master: software tripe integration" "the anode of battery is connected to the metal shrapnel"
LuminaxWkketas: Bomber Training, The Game ?
tgeekyNEW - THE - SIGNAL - PATH - mofuckas
tgeekyDocScrutinizer05: i captured the things, making them into nice gifs now
ketasLuminaxWk: no, just random empty qc3.0 powerbank case from ebay
LuminaxWkoh, heh
LuminaxWk'metal shrapnel' ?
LuminaxWkthat sounds.... suspect :P
ketasmaybe there is shrapnel after explosion
ketasmore fun there
ketas"ripple contro"
LuminaxWkmust be a samsung battery in its past reincarnation
ketas"totally current is up to 5a"
theBearCCFL_Man, yeah, from memory they had a single VERY early (first root/boot public release maybe, first in this state fer sure) linux box beside the dos (frontdoor/mmmm. multiline maybe, i forget, didn't matter if i wasn't the guy who had to admin it) boxes that each modem/line had one of.... either way, mosaic suite + ms-win ip-stack didn't exist yet, so even IF yer knew what a internet was, yer woulda probly had to go use a dec term at the
theBearuniversity to actually do anything with it ;-)
theBearand i'm not here :)
tgeekyhaha oops
tgeekyLuminaxWk: the optimizations I do with my GIFs basically optimized away the very point I was trying to show
tgeekyyou'll see in a sec
LuminaxWko.o okay
tgeekytheBear: Cracki: DocScrutinizer05: tpw_rules: jaakkos:
tgeekyone of the captions is wrong
tgeekyand now it's locked
ketas"insert slow breath must insert in the end"
LuminaxWk2 and a half hour of sleep last night
LuminaxWkI just fell asleep in front of the PC...
tgeekyLuminaxWk: theBear Cracki DocScrutinizer05 tpw_rules jaakkos: <-- corrected imgur album, sorry
DocScrutinizer05tgeeky: yeah, that trigger thing is a big PITA fsckup in rigol's firmware. they should constantly scroll left side of trigger until trigger event happens
DocScrutinizer05for that kind of screencast that 2 f/s screenshot is fine, for regular scope purposes I prefer saving waveforms. I mean a 24Ms deep RAM takes a *lot* of full resolution screens
password224Ms is nice
tgeekyDocScrutinizer05: oh sure, but the primary goal here is to get something i can put on the internets that requires absolutely no software to interpret
tgeekyi haven't ever needed to get the waveform directly yet, but one day I'm sure I will
tgeekyespecially for offline FFT
password2wow , its quiet this morning
Caspernight, not morning, m'kay?
password2its always day here
Casperolleh sohte
Meadshhh, we are trying to sleep off all the cans of light beer we drank watching football
Casperlight.... beer... football...
CasperMead: never invite me, okay? :D
MeadWhen football starts at 7am with the gam in the UK, you've gotta go with light beer or you won't make it to the 7pm game
password2lol casper , theere are much worse things than light beer
Meadlike no beer
Casperpassword2: sure, but I can'T stand any alcohol, I don't like beer taste, and I hate, HATE sports!
password2wait , you cant stand beer taste?
password2i think i found the reptile alien :O
Meadsounds like I wouldn't want to invite you over for nfl sunday football watching anyway
Casperand the alcohol taste make me want to throw up
Meador ever
Casper( T ʖ̯ T)
tgeeky <-- survey and scope/spectrum shots of various real and fake 5V usb adapters
ketas"appropriative heat sink"
Casperbtw, apple's cube, the prongs are fused in the plastic, the counterfeit are just press fit
LuminaxWkapple's.... cube ?
password2shittin bricks
LuminaxWksince 1991(tm)
mluif I'm looking for a general purpose MCU these days, is there any reason to choose an AVR over a STM32F?
Casperprice, cost, footprint, ease of programmation, power requirement, voltage requirement, power requirement...
gurkimlu: no
Casperall of those can be on both side
gurkiget some stm32 and be done with it
HrdwrBoBmlu: ease of use and familiarity are good reasons
Casperand for a new design, I'ld avoid avr for a while... until we see what microchip will do with them...
HrdwrBoBeven if it's not a perfect fit
LuminaxWkmlu: PIC please :P
gurkii fail to c how stm32 is harder than avr
LuminaxWkCasper: I think Microchip gulped Atmel just for their ATSAM
mluI was looking at the cost, etc. and while I'm not yet familiar with ARM (surprisingly), something tells me that I should get very familiar with it
gurkitheres rly good ides
LuminaxWkand properly ignore the AVRs
mluit looks like the AVR is going the way of the 8051
LuminaxWkfor fast STM32 'project turnaround', a Nucleo board and mbed...
gurkimbed act is a good thing for beginners :)
LuminaxWkmbed is quite a good abstraction layer, however I have yet to test the minute details and capabilities of the platform
mlusince it seems like for the STM32F-series, if I understand correctly, the only two downsides are: "not Arduino" and 3.3V (should you need 5V)
gurkiits keil put into ur browser
mluparticular for the STM32F0xx series
gurkiless features ofv
mluoh yeah, no capacitive touch, right?
gurkiget the l4 nucleo
Drakoniteother than the avrs having much wider voltage tolerance, I struggle to think of any major things it's better at
gurkiits featureset is ridiculous for its price
mlugurki: mines just arrived last week
Drakoniteavr asm was pretty sane IIRC, but who writes asm anymore? :P
LuminaxWkI have an F334
LuminaxWkwhich was suggested to me by Viper-7 for its picosecond timer
gurkii did 18 years ago. now? asm? hellno
LuminaxWkhowever I have yet to use that feature :|
mludoing a new design and I'm really debating on whether or not I should bother ordering 10 Atmega328PBs or if I should get 10 STM32F070s
mluDrakonite: always nice to ASM it up when you really need to do so :)
gurki+500 for stm32 :p
LuminaxWkonly do ASM if you really really really REALLY must squeeze every last drop of performance from your particular MCU
LuminaxWkand only if you know what the fuck you're doing ;)
DrakoniteI might write some small bits of assembly for timing critical stuff on rare cases, but ARM is pretty sane ASM itself :P
LuminaxWkmore often than not, the 'ASM barebone' coding leaves a lot to be desired and puts a lot of blocking codes
Drakonitehmm.. do the cortex-m0/m4 MCUs execute full ARM, or THUMB instructions?
mluhehehe, I default to C and would like to play around with Rust, but ASM's fun once in a while
LuminaxWkand, it's fucking hard to look at someone's ASM instruction and immediately goes 'oh, this code does this'
LuminaxWkDrakonite: full ARM, I'd think
mluif only I learned ARM instead of MIPS in college; but that's what I have those PIC32s around for
DrakoniteLuminaxWk, eh, depends on the architecture and how well the ASM is written. I can read some ASM reasonably, but I've known people that can read ASM easier than you can read [insert your preferred language here]
LuminaxWkDrakonite: yep, it's just like languages of the world
Drakonitemlu, I learned ASM by RE'ing MIPS. I kinda miss MIPS, but ARM is pretty sane too.
LuminaxWkone you've always used all your life will come more familiar to you no matter how hard it seems to other people
gurkiLuminaxWk: i h8 my native lang
LuminaxWkI used to be able to, because I did a lot of M6800/M68000 back in 'the days'
LuminaxWknot anymore :\
mluDrakonite: what do you think about the future of RISC-V?
LuminaxWkgurki: and that would be ?
gurkinot eng
LuminaxWkI can see
mluseems like MIPS with a few more instructions to catch up to ARM as far as I see it
LuminaxWkit's not my native language either, but eh
LuminaxWkit's universal enough :3
LuminaxWkand imo, C/C++ is the 'English' of the programming world
LuminaxWkwith C++ perhaps being the British-accent one :3
Drakonitemlu, I don't know much about it, but I don't see an open ISA ever getting much traction as anything more than a curiosity
mluC will always feel more natural to me than C++ :)
LuminaxWkmlu: C is the toneless, accentless, 'textbook English' ;)
LuminaxWkwell...maybe not toneless, but you get my point
mluI ordered one of those SiFive RISC-V dev boards as a curiosity a while ago: I just remember reading through the ISA and reacting like: woah, this is basically MIPS extended
LuminaxWkbtw... anyone ever used Renesas' RX100 lines and its 'amazing' programmer in their spare time?
LuminaxWkno? oh well
mlumain thing I wonder is: when someone comes out with a ESP32-like chip for 5.4GHz, will it be based on RISCV instead of Xtensa
DrakoniteI like parts of c++. What I don't like are the people who think just because a feature exists you have to use it
LuminaxWka feature, any feature, exists to provide you options
mluI find I only tend to use the plain C features most of the time
LuminaxWksometimes there's just no other options, but with language like C/C++, there's ALWAYS another option
mlueither that, or I'd rather be coding in Ruby ;)
DocScrutinizer05tgeeky: many thanks for this excellent link (usb chargers)
mlumy favorite part about C++ is how it's so extensible you can pretty much turn it into a language that is specifically suited for your purpose and still have almost no overhead
LuminaxWkexcept compiler overhead ? :o
mluLuminaxWk: the RX100s -- hmm, heard they're popular MCUs for lots of PC components (i.e. hard drives, PCI-e cards, etc.)
LuminaxWkmlu: I had an encounter with some on some Fujitsu Airconditioning remote control
password2well everything has overhead , except fpga's :D
LuminaxWkit's a wonderful chip, the remote control has an awesome design
LuminaxWk.....except for the fucking programmer >_>
LuminaxWkACTION rages
mlupassword2: crossbar overhead? :P
LuminaxWkhmmmm.... actually.... I wonder if the software is supported on Linux
password2is that a thing?
mluACTION wishes for a printer that'd magically print out ASICs one-by-one
LuminaxWkmmmmmmmm ASIC-printer
LuminaxWkif you can invent that, you'll be richer than Elon Goddamn Musk
gurkiill take 10 :)
mlulol, it'd probably do Xilinx in :P
LuminaxWknah, Xilinx'd probably sponsor it and comes out with some new fpga/asic idea
mlubut it seems far and remote considering we can't even do that with PCBs quite yet :(
Shawn|i7-720QMis LT8330 a popular boost converter?
LuminaxWkradical ASIC-on-wood or somesort
LuminaxWkfor the truly green technology!
LuminaxWk.....or brown
Drakonitemlu, I think it's possible to do, but not financially viable
gurkieh? how?
LuminaxWkI don't think it's technologically viable yet, Drakonite
gurkiremoving the photoresistive stuff via laser doesnt count
mluhmm, wonder how much such a thing would cost: I'd imagine it'd save heaps of time for prototyping
LuminaxWkthis would be full-scale, 3-dimensional, die printing
LuminaxWkwhich, seeing as how we're STILL having trouble with 3D plastic/metal/wood/whatever printing technology, is not quite viable yet imo
mluI'd imagine if you have a bunch of perfboards, there's nothing preventing you from using going in with a CNC mill and milling away the copper
gurkimlu: but then gurki wouldnt test his crapalphadesigns anymore^^
LuminaxWkis that version -0.1 ?
gurkimlu: thats a pita for smd
Drakoniteisn't there some DLP based stuff for exposing silicon dies?
mlugurki: hard part is the solder resist?
gurkino, pad size vs drill size vs taking forever
gurkiu reach a point where etching is faster
Drakonitegurki, for milling PCBs, you hit that point very quickly :P
gurkiDrakonite: i know :p
mluhmm, what if the PCB was made with aluminum instead of copper?
mluall you need is some magic solder then
LuminaxWkespecially when you're talking multilayer sub-mm
Drakonitethe advantage of milling is you can locally make them and do one-offs, which is much faster than sending out for them to be made
gurkiDrakonite: u can home etch too
mluI find that I etch my shirt and sink too :/
gurkiim not wearing my favourite shirt when i etch :)
DrakoniteI want to try etching some day, but I also don't want to deal with the chemicals
mlutried it a couple times: never again ;)
LuminaxWkI used to keep a big glass jar of them ferric chloride
LuminaxWkand some hydrogen peroxide
mlualso: hard to get traces at the 0.65mm and 0.5mm levels
LuminaxWkmlu: not really
gurkiact easy
LuminaxWkit takes a few tries to get it right, but once you get the hang of it it's quite easy
mluhmm, just like soldering SMD?
LuminaxWk...a little bit
LuminaxWkit's not as repeatable as the 0.5mm tracks, though
mluI had such a hard time with SMD soldering until I got myself a temperature-controlled iron and some Chipquik
DocScrutinizer05 is a pretty neat summary, just missing the headache icing on top from ID-pin based charger ID
Drakonite"until I got myself a temperature-controlled iron" ... I think I know what your problem was :P
DocScrutinizer05so much for "USB charging as a worldwide universal standard" X-P
mlunothing like the smell of boiled epoxy and tears of failure
LuminaxWkdedicated USB <-- Computer's USB port ?
DocScrutinizer05hmm no, actually I'd cal this "Nokia et al" supposed to deliver 1A+
LuminaxWkmlu: I have a dedicated work jig for SMD soldering
_abc_ fun $25 device? $25?!
_abc_Any other foot related devices related to phones you know about? [discussion?]
DocScrutinizer05LuminaxWk: shorting D+ D- would be nasty on USB host ;-P
_abc_DocScrutinizer05: they are specced for it
DocScrutinizer05LuminaxWk: USB hosts use ENUM
LuminaxWkexactly my thought...
mlumy SMD soldering setup: $10 helping hands, Weller WES-51D, Aoyue 968 hot air (for rework), a tube of ChipQuik tacky flux, and some random tweezers
_abc_LuminaxWk: what is this D+ D- shorting about please?
DocScrutinizer05_abc_: huh? no, I thought they are specced to use D+/- for *data* ;-)
_abc_DocScrutinizer05: yes but they are electrically specced for short between them and to gnd
mluaren't you supposed to put a resistor between D+ and D- if you intend to make it a charger?
_abc_Not to +V though. Afair.
DocScrutinizer05_abc_: sorry you lost me
_abc_Some chargers have a short between D+ and D-
DocScrutinizer05mlu: no, a short
_abc_DocScrutinizer05: usb electrical specs say you can short D+ D- to each other and to gnd.
_abc_DocScrutinizer05: you should not do that to +Vsupply.
_abc_Especially not to +5V
password2yeah , shorting D+/D- can be favourable
_abc_Note the 3.6V tranzorbs on D+ D- on USB 2.0 devices. Those will go if you short to +5
DocScrutinizer05_abc_: hmm maybe, but that's not what we're talking about here
mlusmoke generator! :D
mluor polyfuse tester
_abc_Well, what are you talking about?
LuminaxWkI know some USB charger cable have the D+/D- shorted on the device side, not on the host side
_abc_LuminaxWk: yes but it does not matter.
_abc_LuminaxWk: you know the usb hub programmer?
LuminaxWkbecause some phone expect to see it shorted... although to be honest, I'm not quite sure about the proper USB spec on handling Data Line short
_abc_It takes some liberties with the usb lines
Eduard_MunteanuHmm... desoldering braid seems kinda expensive... why is it like $5 for 1.5m on Farnell?
DocScrutinizer05_abc_: yes it does, for charging
_abc_Eduard_Munteanu: try local sources, it's 3 to 15RON
DocScrutinizer05LuminaxWk: it's one of a set of official specs
_abc_Eduard_Munteanu: also make your own, peel the insulation from flexible audio shielded cable and flux it
Eduard_Munteanu_abc_, yeah, I've mostly used my own because I've always ran out of store-bought really quick.
LuminaxWkfor best result, use MonsterCable !
_abc_Eduard_Munteanu: Chinese Aluminum+steel mesh shield cable makes this interesting now...
LuminaxWkACTION snickers
LuminaxWkif those cables are available here, I'd risk my life and record to steal it and post picture of me using them as braided fluxed solder wick
Eduard_MunteanuWell, the stuff they sell on Farnell is oxide-free copper, so I guess they do get it from premium audio cables. :P
_abc_I use CAT5 wires for jumpers in protos. I caught myself soldering about half the bridges in a unit with that before I realized it was CCA. Cue wires popping out of solder joints etc. "§$$$%%*!! later I removed all the bridges and started over, this ...
_abc_... time with non CCA
Eduard_MunteanuWhat is CCA?
_abc_Copper Clad Aluminum, the latest attack from China on Western electronics reliability
_abc_It looks like copper, you need to carefully deinsulate it, rub the copper off, if it is Al shine underneath, you lost.
DocScrutinizer05oxide-free copper spounds like
LuminaxWkwhile that particular alloy does exist, I wonder if there's even a way for the general public to ascertain whether it's really a high-quality premium grade copper alloy designed to reduce oxidization as low as possible
LuminaxWkor if it's just bullshit marketting, as is with 99.9% of the products on the market
DocScrutinizer05as with 99.999% of top notch audiphile equipment
_abc_The general alloy used is 'Chinesium'.
_abc_LuminaxWk: China also makes O2C which is completely oxydized Cu wire. You know it from cheap cables.
DocScrutinizer05I regularly laugh my ass off when I see a power cord for 100s of bucks for the last meter from outlet to amp, while from breaker box to outlet there's 3*1,5_NYM
acetolinewhy do audiophile discussions always sound like arguments between retarded six year olds?
drazakoxygen free is something that actually makes sense though...
jsoftDocScrutinizer05, Yes but does the rest of the wiring have sound enhancing noise reducing diamond coated pixie jiggling fairy dust?
jsoftI think not.
Drakonitedon't forget your gold plated HDMI and optical cables
DocScrutinizer05jsoft: well, when your amp is actually sounding better when it got a netter power cord, then I think you failed miserably on getting I high quality *amp*
DocScrutinizer05oh yeah, gold plated optical fiber :-P
password2theres no such thing as oxygenfree copper on earth
password2unless it was fabbed in a perfect vacuum
DocScrutinizer05it's obvious why that will imporve the light and thus the sound, no?
linux_probethey mean more the cleansing and bonding of jacketing
DrakoniteDocScrutinizer05, it's a thing that exists
linux_probeproblem is, it;s nearly null and pointless as the terminated ends are the major issue
jsoftYou guy's are just haters
jsoftJust found out I've had a debt collector on my ass for the last half year today :)
linux_probeunless you count pocket padding, whilst pooching over the sheeple
jsoftTurns out I have been paying my rates into the wrong account, whoops.
linux_probejsoft, had them after me for 20+ years
_abc_linux_probe: the sheeple who buy these things consider them bling.
_abc_linux_probe: THEY already have pocket padding they can spare
linux_probeblood doesnt coe frpm turnips
linux_probenot true _abc_
jsoftShould be pretty easy, ring up regional council, transfer my credit into your mates over the road
linux_probeas the,m same collegiate monkeys are also the ones that employee many
ZeroWalkercan stm link be used for usb to serial for opi?
linux_probewhatis and STM
JacksonHay linux_probe r
linux_probeoharro Jackson
linux_probeuh-oh, yall best hide now, for it;s caveman
LuminaxWkpassword2: the correct term is reduced-oxidization copper, I think
linux_probeSTM S"illy Teen Molester" ?
linux_probecause if so, I have a fix for that
MystXHey guys, has anyone seen a transformer like this before? I can't find any similar ones anywhere. Sorry about potato picture, and it says "146J" on top:
LuminaxWktrans...? that looks like an inductor or array of inductors... but eh
LuminaxWkoh wait....
LuminaxWkACTION looks at IFT1
LuminaxWkintermediate frequency transformer ?
MystXI feel mightly stupid
MystXOk, and awesome, you can get some with variable inductance which helps me out
DrakoniteZeroWalker, opi?
ZeroWalkerorange pi
password2LuminaxWk: the correct term is that i dont really care
cavemanhi linux_probe.
MystXLuminaxWk: thanks.
DrakoniteZeroWalker, stlink connects to the SWD interface, and I think it's possible to send some debug output over that, but it sounds like it's a bit of a pain to make work. It's not like a UART
acetolineI've realized that a 3d printer needs a lot of set-up and calibration
ZeroWalkerah, so it's better to just grab a usb-to-serial then if i want to use these kind of things
acetolinejust finished building mine
acetolinenow configuring it
ZeroWalker like this?
LuminaxWkhmmm.... $1 per spdt relay, so that's a $16 for a 16 channels....
acetolinebed levelling is super important
acetolineand adjusting the extruder speed is also critical
LuminaxWkZeroWalker: I recommend CP2102
DrakoniteI put numerous hours calibrating mine, and I know it's not calibrated that well
LuminaxWkfrom SiLabs
mlu+1 on the CP2102 for USB-UART
LuminaxWkwell I've tried 10 PL2303, and 4 CP2102
acetolineDrakonite: what is yours
mluit usually works right out of the box, is very capable, is cheap too
LuminaxWkthe 10 PL2303 is now reduced to 4
Drakoniteacetoline, printrbot simple metal
LuminaxWkburned out 6
flor1an..there are people selling arduino nanos for <1 USD
LuminaxWk...Ali ?
mluI heard there was an issue with fake PL2303s a couple years ago -- were you affected?
LuminaxWkmlu: me? I have no idea
ZeroWalkerbut, is serial the same as UART? these names confuses me, i thought UART was something like an "async SPI"
ZeroWalker is this the one?
Duckleanyone know of any good USB microscopes, for less than ~70 USD
LuminaxWkour PL2303 were supplied by the Japan HQ
acetolineDrakonite: hrm I'd never seen that one. Does it have decent resolution? Being supported on one side seems a bit... vibrationy
Ducklewell, decent.
mlusounds like you had the real ones
cheapieThe PLCs we use at school have a CP2012 built in for USB communication. Seems to work fine.
DuckleI want to be able to solder under it too
mlubut wait, I thought Prolific was a Taiwanese company
acetolineDrakonite: mine is a Tevo Tarantula
LuminaxWkZeroWalker: it's basically just voltage level difference
LuminaxWkmlu: maybe
LuminaxWkthe test jigs and etcs were developped by our Japan HQ, and they just shipped the jigs and programs and a whole bunch of peripherals etcs our way
mluthe way I'd put things: I may or may not have some fake PL2303s, but the SiLab CP2102 and CP2104 have just been rock solid for me
LuminaxWkincluded in them were the Prolifics....
ZeroWalkeri see, well as long as it will work with the rx,tx,gnd thingy that seems to be handy
ZeroWalkerwill order the one i linked, CP2102
LuminaxWkZeroWalker: most, if not all, MCU's 'serials' are UART
LuminaxWkor USART
ZeroWalkerwhat other options are there?
LuminaxWkwell......there's RS232
ZeroWalkerfeels like i actually have seen that name
ace4016ZeroWalker, RS-232 supports UART, but the two aren't necessarily coupled. SPI is something a bit different from UART iirc
LuminaxWk+12/-12 iirc
mluin practice, the CP2102 is supposed to work even better than some FT232s due to some driver issues on certain versions of MacOS X (and Apple stupidity)
ace4016ACTION is slow to the reply
LuminaxWkSPI is synchronous, so it is quite different from the basic UART
ZeroWalkerCP2102 will work on windows 10 i hope xd
Drakoniteacetoline, for the price range and when I bought it, it's fantastic. Vibration is not a major issue at all. Resolution/quality would go up if I calibrated it better, but it's not a super high end printer by any means.
LuminaxWknot sure about USART since I've never used synchronous serial that aren't SPI or I2C
mluZeroWalker: you should be able to find a nice driver for it
ZeroWalkeryeah i remember that part, (SPI = sync, UART = async) or something, in a nutshell
LuminaxWkalthough some might argue that I2C isn't really 'synchronous'
ZeroWalkerbut what if i want to find a bad driver;(!
mluZeroWalker: that's when you get the CH340G
LuminaxWkI hate that chip
LuminaxWkmainly for the reason that their sellers put PL2303 and CP2102 in their title description
ZeroWalkerSPI i guess works like the LCD signal driver thingy on the GB, having a master clock that is checked and some bits that will be checked on certain intervals or something
LuminaxWkFUCK YOU ALL.... if I want to search for CH340G I'LL FUCKING SEARCH FOR IT
mlume too: it's big/bulky, and the datasheet only comes in Chinese
mluand I don't know what type of people name their company WinChipHead
LuminaxWkZeroWalker: SPI has a master serial clock, a MOSI, a MISO and an enable line
acetolineDrakonite: well high-end is relative, you can get $100k printers that do like 10 micron resolution or better
LuminaxWkit's truly full duplex, meaning you can actually daisy chains a lot of them
LuminaxWkthis is what JTAG utilizes
DrakoniteLuminaxWk, that's not what full duplex means
Drakonitefull duplex means you can simultaneously send and receive data
LuminaxWkwell... in term of SPI, no
Drakonitein terms of everything
ZeroWalkerah yeah remember reading about that chain thing, was quite weird for me, find the entire thing weird, but then again i am used to USB plug and play so that's no surprise
LuminaxWksince once you daisy chain them the message queue is not full duplex anymore
acetolineDrakonite: what do you use it for?
ZeroWalkerisn't duplex that you can send receive at the same time
LuminaxWkbut a 1-on-1 SPI is full duplex
mluSPI: can't you receive data on MISO while sending data on MOSI if you're the master?
LuminaxWkmlu: yes you can
ZeroWalkerso if you have 100 bit per second, it would technically be 200 bit
DrakoniteZeroWalker, yes. 'full duplex' means data can be sent and received simultaneously. I don't know what LuminaxWk is on about
mluwhereas with I2C, depending on the address, the chips just negotiate control of SDA
mluI find that in practice, the address itself adds quit a bit of overhead for many applications
ZeroWalkerisn't SPI only host to client, the client has no clue what's going on and just follows the master clock and reads the bits?
ZeroWalkeror can it actually talk back?
LuminaxWkI2C has chopped transmission due to its very design, meaning it can at most do half-duplex at any given time
Drakoniteacetoline, one of the big intentions for getting it was to custom print enclosures. At the time I was making some small hardware thingers for clients, and thought it might become a more common thing. (It didn't, sadly)
LuminaxWkZeroWalker: it can send back data on MISO at the same time as Master's sending out data on MOSI
mluSPI is like an orchestra: the clock signal is the conductor and music flows through MISO and MOSI
LuminaxWkor at least I think it can.............. I'm getting doubt now :o
ZeroWalkerwell then it's.. duplex?
LuminaxWkit CAN be full duplex, yes
mluI2C is like a conference call: one chip can "talk" at a time and the I2C master is simply the moderator
ZeroWalkerbut wait, if there's only one clock, can that really work out?
LuminaxWkI2C is walkie talkie ;)
mluZeroWalker: there's two lines
Drakoniteacetoline, I'd wanted one for quite a while though. I don't use it a lot; but I occasionally find use. Project enclosures, keychain/knicknacks, brackets, and random items I design
ZeroWalkeras it's still 2 devices that will be async, so one would have to constantly "align" with the host, i think
Drakoniteacetoline, this weekend I printed new sorting bins for an organizer
mluthis is why I2C is also known as 2-wire: one for clock (SCL) and one for data (SDA)
DocScrutinizer05SPI doesn't mean daisychaining
LuminaxWkanyway, SPI can full duplex to a lot of devices, but can only do it one at a time, and that is signalled by the ChipSelect
linux_probe3d printere
_abc_LuminaxWk: think daisy chain.
LuminaxWkDocScrutinizer05: SPI CAN daisy chain, is what I was trying to say, I guess
linux_probethat junk will be good in 12 to 15 years
mluwhereas SPI comes in 3-wire and 4-wire modes: one for clock (SCLK), master in slave out (MISO), master out slive in (MOSI), and chip select (CS -- optional)
mlumany things can happen simultaneously on a single clock signal
Drakonitelinux_probe, I think a big issue is people's expectations
linux_probelike multiple exploits and issues ^^ :))
DocScrutinizer05LuminaxWk: no, SPI sends response on MISO, no sense in feeding that to another MOSI
LuminaxWkmost chip will label them SDO/SDI
ZeroWalkerbtw, if you shutdown orange pi (i guess rpi as well?) how would you actually boot it again, except reconnecting the power
Drakoniteacetoline, all I know about the one you ordered is the first search response is gearbest, and gearbest can go fuck themselves :P
linux_probesheeple have no expections, they just do randomly because nobosy said, hey your data may be stolen/viewed by the world
linux_probeeven then, I have tried to tell folks such and they have poo-pooed it off
linux_probeuntil AFTER they;re in major troub;e
Drakonitelinux_probe, I have no idea what that has to do with any of the conversations that were going on
linux_probethen it;s how can I fix it? you cannot game over
Drakonitelinux_probe, how many drunks are you? :P
linux_probeno drunks and hows about you
Drakonitenot enough drunks, apparently
mlufor me, the big difference between I2C and SPI is whether or not slaves have to consider addresses
linux_probeit stememd from 3d printer bit
acetolineDrakonite: I just got it directly from Tevo
acetolinenever got anything from gearbest
Drakonitelinux_probe, I have no idea how :P
DocScrutinizer05mlu: point
LuminaxWkDocScrutinizer05: daisy chaining accomplishes multiple clients over a single Slave Select line
DocScrutinizer05SPI has no addr
LuminaxWkwith sacrifices to speed
LuminaxWkand code complexity, I guess *shrug*
mlubeing able to daisy-chain is mainily good for electrical testing
DocScrutinizer05LuminaxWk: now you totally lost me
Drakoniteacetoline, you should continue never buying from gearbest. I did once; they sent me DOA carp, and even though it turned out to be a common fault they harassed and blamed me, and refused to replace or refund my money
mluwhereas if let's say you had a few chips with faulty connections, with I2C, it's hard to figure out where the faulty connections are
mluwith a daisy-chained setup, you can just keep on going to the next chip until you find where the chain breaks
DocScrutinizer05LuminaxWk: seems my idea of daisychaining isn't compatible with yours
LuminaxWkDocScrutinizer05: as long as you keep the select line low, the data from MOSI will keep propagating through all clients until it reaches the final SDO and goes back into the master's MISO
DocScrutinizer05err wut?
LuminaxWkerrrr..... wut ?
Drakoniteto me, daisychaining implies one thing passes the signal to the next one. that's not what SPI does. in SPI, ICs just ignore the signals unless their CS is triggered
LuminaxWkDrakonite: <LuminaxWk> DocScrutinizer05: as long as you keep the select line low
Drakonitews2812s are an example of daisychaining
Drakoniteeach one forwards the signal to the next
DrakoniteSPI uses a bus, not a daisychain
LuminaxWkif you connect them in parallel, with each chip having its own \CS, yes
mluyou can do both! :)
LuminaxWkyou connect them in daisy chain, connect all \CS to a single point, and you have a serial daisychain
mluthat's why I like SPI: it's so simple -- in fact, a shift register in itself ia a SPI device
DocScrutinizer05SPI knows two states: 1: peripheral device not selected, ignores MOSI, keeps MISO output high-Z. 2: selected, listens to data on MOSI, sends *own* data on MISO
DrakoniteLuminaxWk, wat?
DocScrutinizer05that's not SPI
LuminaxWk...fine, Serial Daisychain Interface then...
ZeroWalkersome ppl call SPI Super Power gnu
mluI just like to call it "Spy Probe Interface" in my head
DocScrutinizer05mlu: the generic SPI device doesn't echo data-in to data-out
LuminaxWkhmmmm.....there's no official SPI specs is there.... or is there
DocScrutinizer05so while you *could* implement JTAG-like daisychaining in SPI, it's not how the regular SPU device works
LuminaxWkthere we go, I rest my case
DocScrutinizer05SPI , and disclaimer "AFAIK"
Drakonitethere is no official spec AFAIK, but most of the details are widely agreed upon. The only major variables I'm aware of are the speed, and whether things are pulled high or pulled low
mluto me, it's one of those "pseudo-standards" -- there's a certain signaling system that's quite common (due to its triviality), but everyone has a slightly different definition
ZeroWalkeranyone got experience with chibios or similar realtime os?
mluthankfully, we have datasheets :)
LuminaxWkwell, that's usually where the EEs work region is
LuminaxWkfiguring out what the fuck the thing does, and design accordingly :3
DocScrutinizer05sure you could drive daisychained stuff like e.g. JTAG from a SPI master
DocScrutinizer05but you can't daisychain 99.9% of generic SPI peripherals
LuminaxWkof course
LuminaxWkmost of them are designed with the basic SPI protocol most manufacturers agreed upon, that it's a synchronous driven master clock with 1 data in, 1 data out, and an enable or \enable line
LuminaxWkhmmmm.... I can safely say that 99.99% of SPI devices use \Enable ?
LuminaxWk(active low)
mluseems like the case to me
mluprobably because that way, you can just ground \Enable if you only have one device
DocScrutinizer05otherwise leave it open ;-D
DocScrutinizer05though, you probably rather should use a 10kR to tie EN to VDD
DocScrutinizer05so yes, /EN is simpler, by one R
PeyamI have a plc connected to PC and a Beijer Hmi connected to hmi. how do i Connect them in and starting programming?
mluPeyam: which PLC?
Drakonitethose recommending the CP2102, what's it's story re: 5v vs 3.3v signaling?
mluUSB signaling is always 3V3 -- but VBUS is 5V for charging
DocScrutinizer05no story, some chips need 3V3 or even 1V8
mluhowever, CP2102 requires 3V3 to run
Drakoniteso, the CP2102's UART signaling is at 3.3v?
Drakoniteis the RX 5v tolerant?
DocScrutinizer05hmm, some of those adapter chips allow selecting Vio
DocScrutinizer05no idea bout Cp2102
LuminaxWkwelp, most of the time you have a wealthy amount of GPIO pins to accomodate lots of SPI devices
Drakoniteah, found the datasheet. max voltage on an I/O pin is 5.8v
LuminaxWkerrrrr isn't CP2102 at 3.6V ?
LuminaxWkoh, the supply is 3.6V
DocScrutinizer05 FTDI
LuminaxWkno FTDI for me
LuminaxWkI'd type what FTDI meant to me but that might be too offensive even for my foulmouthed self :3
mluCP2102: not 5V tolerant AFAIK
Drakonitemlu, I managed to find the answer, and it IS 5v tolerant
LuminaxWkDrakonite: might be series dependent ?
LuminaxWkACTION rechecks
mluDrakonite is right; I must have recalled incorrectly
jaggzi wonder what the radiation is like in an auditorium full of cellphones
mluElectrical specs on the CP2102 datasheet says that the absolute max on any I/O pin, VBUS, or /RST with respect to ground is 5.8V
DocScrutinizer05anyway here's their schematics, you don't have to buy them:
JFK911keysight let the hp archives burn in a fire
mluI avoid FTDI when I can, but the question I ask is: how long of a boycott is enough?
JFK911agilent took care of them in a fireproofed hard building
JFK911keysight left this stuff in trailers
LuminaxWkVoltage on UART pins, GPIO, VBUS,
LuminaxWkRSTb, or any other non-power, nonUSB
LuminaxWk\0D\0A sneaked up on me >_>
mluI wonder if anyone has experience with the Cypress clone of the FT232RL
DocScrutinizer05no, this one is the better one schem
Drakonitemlu, is that the CY7C65213 ?
Peyamanyone please can help me setup plc and my hmi with a pc?
mluDrakonite: believe so
LuminaxWknow with RS-485 support!
LuminaxWkKeyence ?
Drakonitemlu, it's not just a boycott, but it is no longer working with a company that has demonstrated they are not to be trusted, so I will not deal with them at least as long as it takes for them to demonstrate they should be trusted... which they aren't doing.
Drakonitemlu, sporkfun sells boards with the CY7C65213
LuminaxWkDrakonite: FTDI? same sentiment here
LuminaxWkI understand that Chinesium clones are a pain for everybody, and you want to take steps to prevent against that
LuminaxWkhowever, bricking someone's design is NOT that step
PeyamFrom the address I see in the plc in Codesys I have 8 channels and adress. does it mean I only can have 8 global variables?
LuminaxWkalso, after a few years in the electronic industries, it's really not a surprising fact that supply chains are never trustworthy >_>
LuminaxWkhowever sometimes you just have to grin and bear it
mluI personally find it annoying that they refuse to fully document their chips
LuminaxWkMuRaTa clones...
LuminaxWkACTION sighs
LuminaxWkour internal specs specify ±0.8% for ceramic resonators, the designer picked a ±0.5% resonator line just to be on the safe side
mluthe CY7C65213 -- seems interesting, but on the other hand, I'm having a hard time justifying one of those unless I needed a drop-in replacement for a FT232RL design
LuminaxWkand then we get a batch of 2000+ 'broken' resonators, 80% falls outside the 0.5%, and only 12% or so falls inside the 0.5%
mluotherwise, the chip's cost is just too high unless I need a built-in 3V3 out and 1V8 out
LuminaxWkthe rest even fails the 0.8%
Peyamanyone with knowledge about plc?
DocScrutinizer05Drakonite: anyway from above referred cypress:
LuminaxWkand the supplier response to our carefully crafted data showing the resonators are out of spec? "But you can still use them, right?"
DocScrutinizer05Drakonite: shoukld answer the question about signaling level
DocScrutinizer05aah wait, nope, not for cp2102
LuminaxWkPeyam: most of us I think have more or less basic PLC knowledge, but PLC can be quite specific in term of brands and environment
LuminaxWkI personally prefer Keyence
DrakoniteDocScrutinizer05, I wasn't asking about the cypress :P .... I already found the answer for the cp2102 though, thanks anyways
LuminaxWkhmmm... maybe not most... I'm speaking out of turn again.... but eh
LuminaxWkso anyway... it turned out our supplier supplied us with Ceramic Resonator stocks improperly stored in non-temperature controlled storage
PeyamLuminaxWk: the procedure should be the same when it comes to connecting it to plc. I have these and I made a program. Now Im gonna adress these to the plc.
LuminaxWkand probably not even moisture controlled >_>
mluhmm, ooo, I Have one question that popped out: anyone have any suggestions for good alternatives to the FT232H chip: want something generic that can do both FIFO and SPI
Peyamthat s all I see in IO mapping. does it mean I will have 8 variables?
mluLuminaxWk: hmm, I assume those can't be resotred with a bake?
LuminaxWkmlu: tried, failed
LuminaxWksubstance's probably cracked inside already
PeyamLuminaxWk: I would appriciate any help since Im close to my deadline. sorry
Drakonitemlu, erm... the cp2102 we were just taking about maybe?
LuminaxWkI....don't have any clue what PLC software this is, but to answer your question, yes you probably only have 8 variables
LuminaxWkor 'switches'
mluDrakonite: that only does UART and SPI, not FIFO, right?
LuminaxWklooks to be grouped in the form of byte variable, so you can for example, sets all bits on by entering 0xFF
Drakonitemlu, perhaps!
mluor is this one of those scenarios in which I should just use two separate chips?
Drakonitea lot of MCUs have that built in now
LuminaxWkin all fairness, and not at all a plug for Microchip, you can probably use one of the PIC18F like the PIC18F14K50 with all built in
LuminaxWkyou just have to compile the stacks
mlushould be quite easy to just program any MCU with USB support and a reasonable number of IOs
DocScrutinizer05bitbanging UART sucks donkeyballs
LuminaxWkso you go get a decent MCU with built in USB, built in UART, built in SPI, built in cetera
LuminaxWkACTION points above
mluthe STM32F070 will do the job wonderfully and has a very low per unit cost
mluit's actually less than the cost of a CP2102N, but not after you add the crystal
LuminaxWkand then there's the stack to program :P but then again the PIC is the same story
LuminaxWkanyway, break time o/
ziongatehi, question: i2c-controlled IC's generally, if not still powered up, drain current to his power supply by ESD diodes of the i2c line. Is it true that IC reset line kept high or low can mak a difference in this case ?
mluziongate: i2c SDA should always be open-drain (connected to a pullup resistor)
DocScrutinizer05still may have clamp diodes
ziongatemlu, the issue is when the target is not powered, it generally drain current from i2c
ziongateSome assumptions says that reset asserted low avoid the "drain" but i am not understanding why
Shawn|i7-720QMis paper tape a bad idea for electroluminescent insulation?
DocScrutinizer05yeahm reverse feed / phantom feed
Smidge204i2c lines are supposed to be pulled high. If you assert the line low you're shorting it out and draining power
DocScrutinizer05ziongate: maybe reset low holds chip in a passive very low power mode so it doesn't drain noticeable amount from data / clock lines
ziongateDocScrutinizer05: yes that's what i think
ziongatein reset it shoudl ask much less current, so the effect is not noticeable
Smidge204The only leakage would be through the connected IC's pins which should be nanoamps or less
DrakoniteShawn|i7-720QM, hm... I would think so, as there are cases it might short through it (if you're talking of the kind of tape I think)
Shawn|i7-720QMmasking tape?
Shawn|i7-720QMthe dollar store white stuff
ziongateSmidge204: well, fighting in low power tasks, often i2c lines if target chip is not powered, can drain quite a lot
Smidge204ziongate: I don't see how. It's open drain so the i2c pins should be in a high impedence state by default.
DrakoniteShawn|i7-720QM, it that stuff gets wet, it can be conductive. It also tears easily and does not conform to shape.
DocScrutinizer05ziongate: yes, pulling low /reset makes sense then
DocScrutinizer05Smidge204: it's via clamp diodes to Vcc
Drakonites/it that/if that/
ziongateyeah the esd diodes
Smidge204Get lower leakage diodes then *shrug*
ziongatethe master side may be driving the bus already
ziongateor , no, by pull up
ziongatebtw, thanks, now things are more clear
Shawn|i7-720QMI found clear strong cellophane tape
DrakoniteShawn|i7-720QM, even the dollar store should have electrical tape, which is called that for a reason :P
DocScrutinizer05Smidge204: there's a clamp diode that makes sure data lines are no higher levek than VDD+0.7
linux_probeclear tape?
linux_probewe used to splice audio tape years ago
DocScrutinizer05Smidge204: nothing to do with leakage current
Smidge204DocScrutinizer05: Right, so unless you're a ditz and you're putting more than Vdd to your pullups those diodes should not be conducting anything unless there's a voltage spike.
linux_probeI was splicing tape as a kid and I am a whole 40 know
DocScrutinizer05Smidge204: Vdd=0V
linux_probeyes reel to reel and 8 tracks
Smidge204DocScrutinizer05: Then there's no way your i2c bus could possibly be working
DocScrutinizer05Smidge204: >><ziongate> mlu, the issue is when the target is not powered, ...<<
linux_probespliced mahy of casette tapoes as some kids called em
linux_proberepaired 9999.9999 cd players
DocScrutinizer05Smidge204: aha, why?
Drakonitelinux_probe, first time I saw someone splice magnetic audio tape with cellotape I thought it was wizardry... now that I know how the magnetic tape works, and how the mechanics of the player work, it now seems almost caveman simple :P
p0g0Shawn|i7-720QM: the paper tape can dry out and catch fire, the cellophane may age poorly and loose adhesion. You want a real "electricians tape"
linux_probehaha @ Drakonite \
Smidge204DocScrutinizer05: Are you sure you understand how i2c works? The lines are pulled high all the time but there is no current at all if the bus is idle.
linux_probeI learend by myself
p0g0The Gibson Girl cut (a kind of tape splice)
mluthere's theoretically no current at all if the bus is idle
linux_probeonly thign I asked was "grandfather" whats that roll of tpe and cutter in there for
DocScrutinizer05are you sure yiou understood ziongate's question?
Smidge204DocScrutinizer05: So it does not matter if one or all the devices onth e bus are "off" - no current shold be flowing anywhere on an idle bus.
linux_probeI was maybe 10?
linux_probehe said ity was for splicing tape
linux_probeI dodnt need shown how it wiorked, the cutter was sharp and had 2x 45 degree blades
mluI think the question is: does a powered-off chip manage to somehow attempt to pull the I2C line low?
DocScrutinizer05yes, where "powered off" literally means Vdd=0V
p0g0Tape splicing was an art. Lee "Scratch" Perry, for example.
Smidge204It shouldn't because it's open drain, and the pin should be high impedence by default
linux_probethe bigger queston is, does anything exist that "powers off" now days
linux_probeyes it was p0g0
linux_probeand i was not quite a god at tapoe splicing
linux_probebut close enough :)
Smidge204i2C pin isn't high or low, it's high impedence or shorted.
linux_probecasue I fiddled weith 8 track and such as a KID
DocScrutinizer05and the answer is "yes, it will pull down data lines via clamp diode to Vdd and chip's own power consumption to GND"
linux_probethat was in the 80's and 90's I fiddled with 5-'s to 7-'s tapes
Smidge204Why is there a clamp diode tying the circuit to 0v? How can that possibly work?
linux_probein which we converetd many to caseete
linux_probebut sadly most are gone/bad
linux_probemany went onto BETAMAX
DocScrutinizer05Smidge204: simply look at a chip block diagram and schematics and assume "Vdd=0V"
mluSmidge204: brown-out protection?
Smidge204...brown out protection for an i2c bus?..
mlufor the device, not for the i2c bus
ziongateSmidge204: try to power a small crituit except the i2c controlled device. You will see how much it can drain
Smidge204DocScrutinizer05: Did he mention what chip he's using? If so I missed that.
DocScrutinizer05this is OVP, not brown-out something
ziongateand is not only a i2c issue, i have seen also sdio or similar ports suffering the same
DocScrutinizer05it's a common problem on all CMOs
ziongateSmidge204: well t's a silam fm radio chip, but esd diodes on i2c lines are on quite all the chips
mlusomething tells me a brute-force solution is to throw a bunch of optoisolators on there
DocScrutinizer05clamp diodes are on virtually any I(O) of all CMIOS chips
Smidge204But the ESD diode should not be clamping the i2c line to 0v
DocScrutinizer05ACTION headdesks
DocScrutinizer05it clamps to Vdd
ziongatethe issue is the upper diode i guess
ketasi ordered bullshit from china again
Smidge204You said Vdd was 0v!
DocScrutinizer05the GND clamp diode works on Vin=GND-0.7
ketasincluding 5v heating pads
DocScrutinizer05yes, Wdd is 0V when chip not powered
DocScrutinizer05Vdd even
DocScrutinizer05that's what "not powered" means
DocScrutinizer05no power on Vdd
ketasthough i probably don't have enough power with me right now to run them as fingerheaters
ketasalso those pads seem too inflexible
password25v tampon?
Smidge204So the chip is getting backfed from the i2c line then?
ziongateSmidge204: the IC try to power himself mainly
DocScrutinizer05NOOOOW you got it
ketaspassword2: there are those too, usb hole warmers for sex dolls (or dead girls)
ketasnot sure about other uses for those
Johnseni urgently need a halloween costume
DocScrutinizer05Smidge204: and the question been if pulling /reset low may help
Johnsenby tomorrow evening
ketasapparently they have same resistive foil heaters
DocScrutinizer05Smidge204: to reduce load on the I2C data lines
ziongatetrough the upper diode some current should pass since V+ is 0
password2Johnsen: why not go as your self?
ketasit's sometimes even useful that they also sell individual parts of crap they make
Johnseni have nothing, i have elwire (and only 2 controllers)
Johnseni dont even have a white sheet to go as ghost
password2go as something from doctor who , your budget would be about the same
ketaswhy i often see weird photos of chinese products with weird backgrounds... it looks like they live in factory-allocated dull colored dark empty rooms and sleep on floor
password2same as the producers
ketasi'm not surprised if some do
password2they do
Meaddress up like a mormon missionary and wear a bike helmet, splatter your shirt with fake blood
password2and then stab anyone that comes close
ketasbecause that doesn't look work nor home, the conditions in background
Johnseni went as car accident last year
password2wait , how?
DocScrutinizer05ziongate: doesn't the chip support low power mode, e.g. by... pulling low /reset. So you don't need to switch it off hard?
Johnsencar accident victim
ketasJohnsen: was it fake or real
Johnsenmuch fake
Meadit's pretty much short notice now to find a costume
password2i want to see you dress up!
DocScrutinizer05ziongate: or is that "not secure enough" to make sure the chip is "off"
DocScrutinizer05ACTION glares at Librem5
mluhalloween costumes: get a perf board, drill out the center, and hook up a few LEDs -- you'll be the terminator
ziongateDocScrutinizer05: well my issue here is no a big board power up, where some IC's are power controlled by gpios, a big mess
ketasmlu: put red led into eye?
Johnseni have elwire and wifi controlled ledstrip that should last 4 hours or so on a powerbank
mluziongate: practical to just use a relay for the i2c lines? :P
DocScrutinizer05ziongate: I see
mluketas: basically :P
Johnseni can mount 2 leds on a hat
Johnsenif only i had a police costume
ziongateDocScrutinizer05: but many thanks, that reset clarification was very helpful
Johnsenthat would be a good halloween costume between all those potsmokers :p
mluI'm wondering if I should redo my CmdrKeen costume or Spritle (from Speed Racer) this halloween
DocScrutinizer05ziongate: worst case use level shifters and pullups with diode on your switched chip's I2C lines
mluI had a plague doctor costume last halloween, but I scared away even some adults
Johnsenall my mates are from the 80s but most of them didnt have pcs back then, they wouldnt get commander keen costumes
mlunobody got the CmdrKeen costume when I tried it
ketashow does one solder <1mm*<1mm 4 ball bga package
DocScrutinizer05ziongate: sorry, scratch that
ziongateDocScrutinizer05: yeah. It's quite complex board, and i am not in the design team ;) luckily
ketasjust found this
Johnsenthe probmem is that i'm a bit late, the party is tomorrow, and i dont own costumes or makeup etc
ketasthough, i think i could still do it :P
mluget a little creative
mluwhat's your facial shape?
DocScrutinizer05ziongate: I would like to be involved in such design ;-)
mluI've always found that anything involving a robe and boots is easy
DocScrutinizer05ziongate: seems there were a few nonsensical design decisions taken
ziongateDocScrutinizer05: mmmm well, it's a third party design company and situation is not that nice. There are open issues, and $ conflicts ..
ketasgo outside with rubber dick strapped to belt while wearing raincoat
mluziongate: any chance you can just keep that chip on at the end of the day?
ziongateYeah, things are getting fixed (feeding dollars :) )well are 18 pages of diagram and all must work also at low consumption state.
DocScrutinizer05mlu: >><ziongate> DocScrutinizer05: well my issue here is no a big board power up, where some IC's are power controlled by gpios, a big mess<<
ziongateThe problem is that for low power consumption, the design should be thought before in a proper way, or otherwise, oprimizing can be quite impossible, you can only have compromisies
ziongateok i go on back on my trouble bag
DocScrutinizer05hehe I know
ziongatethanks all
password2omg Johnsen , go as a real life dickbutt!
mluACTION wonders what a reasonable solution to the power-off chip problem would be
mluwhen in doubt, punch two holes in a bedsheet and go as a ghost
mluor tie it behind your neck and become a superhero
Shawn|i7-720QManyone here know where I might find a boost converter IC?
DocScrutinizer05ziongate: and that's only half of the final product
mluShawn|i7-720QM: just for driving the boost converter, or the entire chip?
Shawn|i7-720QMin what types of electronics might those come in?
Shawn|i7-720QMI need to boost 3v to 6v
mluI usually build my boost converters out of a discrete inductor and a 555-timer
Shawn|i7-720QMso my 4AAA powered kameleon remote can glow properly with the backlight
DocScrutinizer05ziongate: so I know exactly what you're talking about regarding optimization :-)
Shawn|i7-720QMmlu, a 555timer, really?
ketasit could work i guess
p0g0mlu: Use the sheet and go as Isadora Duncan's ghost.
mluyeah: the 555 timer is simple -- all you have to do is get a few resistors right, and there you go: you have a boost converter with an indcutor, capacitor, and diode as passives
ketasjust switch with finger
DocScrutinizer05Shawn|i7-720QM: or you go for TI stuff for example
mluthe inductor and capacitor aren't that important in terms of value: just make sure you choose one so that your stuff can work at a reasonably low frequency, and the capacitor so that your ripple is reasonable
JFK911use a distributor to repeatedly switch
mluketas: you'll need a huge inductor ;)
Shawn|i7-720QMhow big of an inductor?
ketasmlu: at 1hz?
mluI think I can flip up to 10Hz before my fingers wear out
mluthe good news is: 50% duty cycle is sufficient for going from 3V to 6V
mluShawn: do you have an MCU in your design already?
mluif so, you can do much better than the 555 timer
Shawn|i7-720QMI need to use what I have now
mlujust use one of the PWM outputs as the switch
password2i was pondering if it is possible to drive an ws2818b with an 555
password2wont be trivial
ketasmlu: or use relay
mluhow to make a boost converter with a 555 is one of the first things I learned in my intro to circuits class after I got done with the passives and how op amps worked
ketasvibrate for voltage
password2mlu: did you have feedback , and did you use opamps?
Shawn|i7-720QMI have an extra op-amp on a useless electron gun
mlupassword2: positive feedback for the simplicity but negative feedback for the lack of feedback! :D
mlulet's just say: analog circuits are not my forte
ketasak-47e uses electrons
mluthinking about it: a zener diode and a comparator should do wonders for the feedback boost
nickromancerathlon processors came out in 1919 ketas
mluthat's assuming you have a zener diode kit
LuminaxWkSiLabs seems to have quite a lot of interesting chips
LuminaxWka pity E14 doesn't stock them all
Johnseni wanna dress up like a c64
mluLuminaxWk: did you know they even carry a microcontroller?
password2positive feedback is awesome
LuminaxWkalso Johnsen : you want to dress up like this?
LuminaxWkCommodore, 64
ketas64bit commodore
LuminaxWkmlu: they're the maker of the famous low power Gecko
LuminaxWkI'm seriously considering the Gecko right now
nickromanceranyone here from the uk?
archivistnickromancer, many usually are
nickromancerim just curious if anyone watched the american football game played there this weekend
archivistask a better question
archivistfk no
LuminaxWkACTION points at ##pointlesssports
p0g0heck, even here in the USA, many of us didn't waste our time with that.
archivistI was out steam engine driving
LuminaxWkyeah, I think I saw you from my perch up atop the balloon
n2Mehh i should make this SMD
archivistI wozere
ketasit's hot
ketasi find it weird they call them engines
Peyamcan I use inputs the are of type word as boolean in plc?
n2Peyam, yes
Johnsenoh boy
p0g0just use the first (or any single ) bit
Johnsen1 colleague just left for illness
n2if you wanna be fancy
p0g0in the word
Johnsenthe opther one was already ill
n2(word & 1)
n2or (word >> 15) & 1
p0g0or make a union
p0g0and address it directly
n2Take a look at this sexy Sparkfun-like product I'm making
ketasthe enginist
n2ACTION has never understood the train fascination
Peyamp0g0: I have lite turnOnTheMachine :BOOL; and I addressed it to the input
archivistn2 not an effin train
Peyamp0g0: how do I use the first bit?
p0g0Peyam: as you were just shown, or as a union structure. I can paste an example if you like.
n2Peyam, i wrote you how to do that.
n2(word & 1)
n2A union is also a good solution. You should check that your compiler doesn't do weird tricks though.
Peyamn2: do I write blabla := (word & 1)?
n2Peyam, yes.
n2you can drop the parentheses
Peyamn2: what does that mean?
n2& is the boolean AND function
n2so, 16 bits AND 1
n2returns (15 zero bits) 1
n2if there was a 1 there...
n2or a 0, if there was a zero there...
Peyamand how does the plc know that I mean the 1 and not zero?
n2that's how CPUs work
n2your boolean is most likely a word or whatever atom length your controller chip has
p0g0Peyam: look up "masking", all that has happened is that all the bits were multiplied by zero but for the first (LSB) one.
p0g0and that bit was preserved
p0g0if it was 0, it is still 0, if 1, then still 1
n2For instance, you can get the first 8 bits of a 16-bit word by doing
n2[16-bit word] AND 11111111
DrakoniteI have a question related ws2812 and compatible chips. Let's say I have a chain of ~30 of them, with the data lines connected via a ~70mm wire with spade connectors. any chance the signaling wires that long would cause issues?
Peyamn2 : in codesys I have Application.GLVST.bOpenMicro in mapping window. then how I changing it? do I change it manually? bu saying blabla At %Iw0 : word & 1
n2which is, well, word & 0xFF
n2Peyam, no idea
n2Don't know your particular PLC
n2But this solution is great in that it'll work with any :P
Peyamthe address is % IW0
Peyamchannel AI0
LuminaxWkexactly the reason I dropped PLC and went for MCU a few years back ;)
n2Microcontrollers are, at least, sane
n2the PLC IDEs and such are ball-breaking
LuminaxWkkeyence have quite a good one, and free too
LuminaxWkbut I still prefer my MCU
n2ACTION just ordered a hundred PICs
n2ACTION got a good offer
LuminaxWkboth the MicroControllerUnit, and the MarvelCinematicUniverse
Peyamn2: can you please help me
n2Peyam, I don't know your PLC
n2I can't
PeyamI wrote bPutFoodOnDesk AT %IW0: (WORD AND 1); but it gives error
p0g0Peyam: just to confuse you:
Peyamp0g0: wtf
p0g0That is an 8 bit example, 16 bits is of the same form
p0g0If you look at the last bit, you can see the direct explicit use of the single bit variables
PeyamI need a boolean variable using this plc that has word inputs. How do I define it :(
p0g0by last bit, I mean the last couple of lines
Peyamp0g0: im a newbie
Peyamthis is hardcore
n2ACTION is considering being lazy
n2Use an external D/A
n2or just the one in the PIC
p0g0Peyam: yes, that is systems level coding, tis true.
p0g0Or was, about 30 years ago...
n2p0g0, still is
Peyamp0g0: there is no way I can simply defined a boolean input to a word input?
Peyamshould I buy a new plc wth opnly boolean values?
LuminaxWkI just had a brush with ...hmmm fuck I can't remember the brand....... used in a big physical vapor deposition machine
n2Peyam, at this point
n2i'd advise you to read the [fucking] manual
n2there is surely a way to do what you want
n2but... yeah
LuminaxWkyep, rtfm solves a lot of thing
LuminaxWkalso damnit.... I can't remember that PLC's maker
PeyamI have this [fucking] manual but it is very short and says nothing about this kind of thinds
LuminaxWkname me 3 japanese PLC maker
LuminaxWkPeyam: PLC manual? short?
n2Peyam, there must be some architecture manual
p0g0Peyam: that snippet I posted is just that, about as simple as it gets, once you grasp the notions.
n2or something
LuminaxWkyou must've gotten the wrong manual
n2not the "get started"
LuminaxWkthe manual for that PLC which brand I forgot is like a fucking Encyclopaedia Britannica thick
mluPeyam: booleans are usually stored as words where 0 = false and anything else = true
Peyamp0g0: shouldnt theere be a generic way of declaring variables. I gave you the adress and channel. what else is required?
nullifierthey are all super thick
LuminaxWknullifier: model number starts with C
mluPeyam: no there is not
LuminaxWkI'm pretty sure it wasn't Mitsubishi
LuminaxWkor Hitachi
LuminaxWknot that Hitachi made PLC.... or did they ?
nullifierOf course they did
LuminaxWkof course >_>
p0g0Peyam: I am not sure what you mean by 'generic way', each language offers a variety of ways to tell the compiler to construct a memory reference, and call it by a name (declaring a var).
LuminaxWkah... fuck.... it could be Omron ....... ?
LuminaxWkOmron.... is Japanese, right ?
nullifierSiemens makes a pretty easy to use PLC
mluPeyam: you do understand that a word is simply a bunch of bits that must be read/written together, right?
nullifierthe LOGO! series is literally push-button operated
LuminaxWknullifier: however Siemens' PLC software costs quite a bunch, I heard
nullifierIt's free... comes w/ the PLC
Peyamp0g0: yes and I'm trying to declare a variable but the input on this slot is only of type word. and Im trying to tell the program to put everything to 1. but I dont know how to declare that variable
LuminaxWkah, so like Keyence
Peyammlu: yes
LuminaxWkhmmm... I think it WAS Omron
nullifierIt's probably Rockwell you're thinking of
nullifieror GE Fanuc
nullifierwhich are notoriously wtf-insane but also in every-fucking-thing
mluPeyam: although it's not guaranteed, most implementations just use 0 as false and 1 as true
LuminaxWkah yes, it was Omron
LuminaxWkCP something or other
nullifierOmrons aren't too bad
LuminaxWkmlu: 99% of PLCs I encountered is simply just that
mluPeyam: now, if you have endianness problems (which you shouldn't), you might just want to set it to 0xFFFF for a 16-bit word just in case so that no matter which direction you read it from, it's "true"
LuminaxWkwait, I take that back
LuminaxWk100% of the PLC I've encountered is simply just that
p0g0mlu: I doubt he is ready for byte sex.
Peyammlu: yes I dont know how to do it. I have assigned the variable as boolean in the PLC_PRG and but is global variables its as word
LuminaxWkMitsubishi, Siemens, Omron, n....n....... crap
nullifiermmmm byteseckz
Peyamaddressed to a word-input
LuminaxWkwhat's a sophisticated PLC company/brand that starts with N ?
nullifiermask my bits baby
LuminaxWkdon't think Nissan made PLC, next
nullifierACTION cough wtf
LuminaxWknope, neither did that, next
nullifierIf it's Japanese and it's a manufacturer, they made PLCs
LuminaxWkbut Nissan did not
mluNoritake? :P
LuminaxWkand Toyota did not
LuminaxWkalso, this N manufacturer is not Japanese
nullifierCheck again Watson
LuminaxWknot that I remembered anyway
LuminaxWkwtf? Toyota General made PLCs ?
nullifierBoth Nissan and Toyota manufacture ROBOTS
nullifierbig ones
nullifier6-9 axis
n2ACTION is tired of poor rail splitters
nullifierHence... PLC
n2ACTION is considering buying a big ass CNC machine
n2on an auction for a bankrupcy
LuminaxWkbut they didn't use their own PLC, at least I know Sumitomo, Yushin and Star doesn't
LuminaxWkYushin uses Omron iirc
nullifierToyoda most certainly does
p0g0n2: then what, yo need to house and feed that thing.
n2p0g0, exactly.
n2That is the problem.
n2It takes three phase.
LuminaxWknullifier: I wouldn't really consider their 'solution' to be PLC
n2And the only three phase plug is in (don't laugh) our cat's bathroom
p0g0You can make 3 phase.
LuminaxWkit's a closed-loop custom controller
nullifierhow are we not supposed to laugh at that
LuminaxWkbut eh, I haven't dissected a lot of Toyota robots
n2nullifier, because it sounds silly
n2but it makes a ton of sense
mluhmm... does NI make PLCs?
p0g0n2, heh, catastrophic....
nullifierDatsun-Denki does
LuminaxWkNI made......PAC :P
n2p0g0, it's HUGE and from the 1980s
n2it has an amber CRT...
LuminaxWknullifier: ah, Nissan's offspring
n2but it supports modern-ish stuff
nullifierOther way around but same diff
Peyamit makes me craxy
LuminaxWklater bought by Mitudenki iirc
p0g0n2: how are the bearings and such, is it still precise?
n2p0g0, it's been recently calibrated, there's a certificate
n2it's been well maintained
n2right from a new electron tube to bearings and calibration
LuminaxWkanyway, 15 minutes till I scampers off
nullifierI just woke up
p0g0n2: I bet there will be competition then, those things are valuable.
n2p0g0, shockingly little
n2it's in an inconvenient location
nullifierthat's what she said
LuminaxWkToyoda certainly did make PLC
LuminaxWkor should I say....... DOES
n2Hence, it's cheap
nullifieryes, does
n2Really fucking cheap
n2but, meh
n2What would I use it for?
nullifieralso really large servo stuff
n2Except a thousand things
nullifierlike yeeeeehaw servo
nullifierI think they make the drive that moves the crawler on the shuttle launch pad
Peyammlu: can you help me?
LuminaxWkbut that's JTEKT
LuminaxWkwhich is completely different from Toyota........?
p0g0n2: I worked with a manufacturer, made industrial sewing machines, they had maybe 15 CNC turret lathes... they can do amazing things, should you actually master all the G codes and 3d design issues.
n2p0g0, i'd use it for PCB milling and 3D stuff
n2I hate etching, and I hate shitty plastic additive printers
n2and just sometimes, the turnaround with a proto house is too long
LuminaxWkaaaaaand Hitachi still DOES make PLC
Peyam ,
Peyamn2: what should I look for in the manual?
n2Peyam, anything introducing you to programming it?
Peyamn2: I never worked with hardware like this before
PeyamI looked alot on tutorials and stuff but never came a across anything like this
LuminaxWksearching the wiki leads me to the info that Nissan 're-launched' Datsun brand in 2013 :o
n2But p0g0...
n2We have a big ass apartment
n2there should be room
n2I gotta make a decision
n2My significant other isn't helping - "you can if you want to"
p0g0They are oily, loud, hot, and make a lot of chips/scarf/cuttings...
n2The other tenant is an 80 year old lady with a hearing aid
n2she'll be fine
LuminaxWkunless you can totally enclose them with a proper way to clean them after each cycle or once every few days or so
archivistp0g0, the citizen ones are not that noisy
p0g0I personally would not want one in the house...
n2I should put it in a space
n2Thank god I live in a provincial town
n2where commercial area is cheap
LuminaxWkI would personally create a separate sound-insulated and dust-filtered workroom for those
p0g0n2: And industrious efforts lead to bankruptcy and auctions...
n2Fuck it
LuminaxWkgoing nicely along with my angle grinder, my normal grinder, the drill stands, and the rest of the orchestra
nullifierit's so cold outside a couple of chollos just walked by with their pants pulled UP
archivistcnc in a bedroom is ok
p0g0archivist: if no one ever enters that room...
archivistit is not that big :)
Peyamp0g0: n2 : here is my plc
archivistsmall enough to make
Peyamit is 12 bits :o
LuminaxWkI thought only MMORPG and Starcraft player ever comes out big from Korea
LuminaxWkpardon my bias
LuminaxWkACTION sighs
LuminaxWkfondly remembering the great old nefficient leaks
p0g0Peyam: you are missing a fundamental notion about computer data. You can construct a var, assign its value from whatever you have read from the machine (the 12 bits), then mask that var to a single bit, or use the union methid I showed you to do the same thing.
nullifierMasks are hard mkay
p0g0Peyam: it doesn't much matter what you start with as long as you can read and assign the value.
nullifiershell game bullshit
p0g0nullifier: I prefer the structured method, it is very readable and hence, years later, still obvious what was being done.
Peyamp0g0: Isnt anyway of converting word to bool ? becouse I'm trying to declare it in global variables.
nullifierACTION headdesk
LuminaxWkwhy.... would you want to convert it to BOOL ?
p0g0LuminaxWk: not yet, plz
LuminaxWkoh... oh okay
nullifierjust set it to dbl and forget it
LuminaxWkpremature ?
p0g0LuminaxWk: he is way stuck on the basics
LuminaxWkso there's nothing I can do here :3
nullifierthere is something you can do
p0g0LuminaxWk: au contraire
LuminaxWkI....don't know anything about that Korean brand
nullifierACTION gestures wildly
LuminaxWkand their preferred method of programming :3
p0g0Peyam: OK, you _must_ go read up on masking... nothing else is going to get you to understand what is being said here.
LuminaxWkbesides, it's going-the-fuck-back-home time ;)
nullifierSafe drive
LuminaxWksafe ride it shall be ;)
LuminaxWkACTION rides a 200CC motorbike
LuminaxWkanyway, chao o/
nullifierThere ya go bud
nullifier'the fucking manual' as it were.
PeyamI use ST
nullifierThat book applies to any PLC. It defines the logic you are asking about.
nullifierSpecifically, read the section 1-14
Peyamthe issue is in programming. I understand that we need to assign all bits to 1 but my problem is how to set it to 1 in the programming language
nullifierSet the two inputs to 1
nullifierthat is way oversimplifying it, but that's what you're trying to do.
password2archivist: where do you get such a giant match ? [11:55] <archivist> small enough to make
Peyamnullifier: I wrote putOnDesk AT %IW0: BOOL; and I don't know if that work since %IW0 is a word type
nullifierSTMicro PLC... or Structured Text?
nullifier%iw0 doesn't tell me anything about the syntax or structure really
nullifierACTION gently massages p0g0
Peyamnullifier: structure text. %iw0 is the input address
Peyamnullifier: I declare a bool variable but when I look at the address I see that the input type is word
Peyamif a plc is 12 bits does it mean that we can never defined a variable that is 32 bits?
nullifierVAR A : BOOL;
nullifier B : INT;
nullifier(* ... *)
nullifierhow hard was that
nullifierwait... not hard at all
nullifieryou just need to change the data type, as shown
Peyamnullifier: so wait.. variable1 at %blabla : word; variable 2 : WORD_TO_BOOL(variable1)?
password2TIL , Structural nuts
Peyamthat is good. thank you nullifier
jaakkosI wonder if should state something like, "since V_inductor = dI_inductor/dt, average V_inductor must be zero or current would increase infinitely. since V_inductor is -Vin during on-state (D duration), -Vin*D + Vout*(1-D) = 0"
jaakkosit feels like a much simpler derivation of the same result
nullifierAlright... who farted
hashy_mI did, sorry
nullifierapparently it was my dog, because he got up and left.
hashy_mim not your dog O.o
password2ok , wtf has no one shown me the DIN standard
Shawn|i7-720QMis 100uH too low to be picked up?
password2picked up by what?
theBearpassword2, which din standard ? full/traditional size round connector/sockets ? 2/4 or 5 pin ? mini modern-day sockets ? maybe car key blank or standard keyfob specs ? maybe umm, pfft i dunno, all the ones i can think of are from teh tech dark ages and as useless as knowing how to wire and assemble a 2pin din connector <grin>
nickromancerACTION upgrades password2 
theBeari suppose if you got a stiff back and the inductor was on the floor, it might be too low to piock up ;-)
p0g0Are Dynn standards measured in dB?
password2theBear: all of them relating to screws and mechanical fastners so washers rods pins anchors
ShapeshifterI have several smallish pieces of led strip (3.33cm spacing, strips of 6, 7, 8 and 9 leds) and I need to connect these end to end, again spaced at 3.33cm. Here's a drawing The black lines are the led strips, and every time there's a "bend", I need to cut the strip and connect it with wires. Now I'm wondering what kind of wire I should use. Would a 3-lane 0.75mm²
Shapeshiftercable be ok? I'm wondering mainly about the relationship between the signal/gnd/v++ cables. Since gnd/signal "should" be twisted pair or parallel, is it a problem if the v+ cable is also parallel right next to signal/gnd?
password4theBear: i take it you are familier with DIN?
password4i cant wait for my plates
password4then i can start fabricobbling my press
nickromancerACTION upgrades theBear 
archivistpassword4, the match was the hard thing to make :)
theBearspeaking of being on the floor, just as i was about to put my shoes on to go out and do my errands run for the day, some effing very pointy something jammed itself right in the front of my bigtoe, related facts worth noting at this stage include that it seems to have made itself a very neat skinny slot to enter into and be entirely below surface level, it effing hurt a LOT and still does if i manage to bother it, and it seems to be long and
theBearfairly stiff cos any attempts to cut out a little access hole that touch it, or trying to grab the end, or generally looking at it the wrong way, hurt a LOT in the way you gotta be really inside of something to do, and if yer wiggle anywhere near that area a seemingly plentiful supply of blood happily vents thru the hole
password4i stol that joke from somone that made micromaille that was made by wrapping wire around a toothpic
jaggzhello noble beings.
p0g0theBear: styptic pencil and some ice?
p0g0jaggz: you may have noticed that no one responded to "Nobel Beings"... try "slackers".
password4the micromail chain was about the thickness of a coin
password4dissapointments works too
password4to get attention
theBearpassword4, certainly a few bits and pieces of it, like i say tho, all the bits i can think of right now are pretty old.. oh look, that link just popped up, and yeah, almost all of them are quite familiar to me, just that i refer to them by names like "those little light-duty white nylon not-dynabolt things" or "the rivets that fit in the 2nd sized end on my rivet gun" <grin>
jaggzOh loved ones, your response to your exposure to the grey, mundane, and even foul nature of this world is not your fault.
p0g0ACTION heads off to find a "noble savage"... probably just going to find some dude passed out on a couch with a TV..
password4noble savage , nice
theBearamd of course standard m5 AND m6 cagenuts + ncie matching panhead bolts, ya know, "layman"s terms, by which i really mean plebian-monkey terms
password4I'm thinking a fair barbarian
theBearwhat is Conan ?
password4i've not seen it , only shitton refs to it
password4well the din specs don't seem to include mechanica strength and classes
theBearConan the Librarian... <dude returning a book> "sorry sir, this book is a day late." <Conan_the_Librarian> <raise massive battle-axe> <make chewbacca like "grrraaah" sound> <chop dude in half> </Conan_the_Librarian>
jaggzAll have degrees of savagery in their nature, and unfortunately many to the point that the energies of their life are annihilated in the crude level of transient phenomena.
theBearone of the funniest 15 second scenes i've ever seen recorded that... one day i hope to re-discover/remember where to find it
theBearpassword4, hmm... thinking back to the din stuff i have been intimate with specs/data for various reasons, they usually pretty detailed in the full original spec, tho i can't remember (and also wouldn't much comprehend) and strength kinda stuff, tho physical tolerances and stuff on the size/shape data sure, and recommended (compulsory?) materials for all parts, yeah.. i suppose you could extrapolate from those 2 things combined ?
theBearhmm... if lsd or liquor is classified as transient phenomena, i certainly had my degrees of savagery and energies of life influenced by them... annihilated and improved, respectively <look_of_considered_approval>
jaggzif something leads to more stability ...
jaggzhow can that be bad?
weyland|yutaniACTION is still sad adult swim didnt do a korgan the barbarian series
theBearShapeshifter, chances are the power line isn't SUPER-noisy, at least not compared to the nice big logic voltage levels on the data line, tho it is worth thinking about any/the current carried by any ground that is gonner be used as a reference to read the signal/data line against... if yer not been in a similar situation before, it's the same reason "ground loops" tend to be a problem... basic idea is that if a ground line is carrying relatively
theBearlarge currents (as a return for another power line) that by the time something some distance along that gnd line thinks of it as exactly zero volts, which is what it really is in the case of gnd+signal line, it may in realitty be somewhat higher (in the case of it being the return linef for a positive dc powered something) than what it is at the end where the signal/data is sent f rom... cos there are no perfect conductors, and resistive
theBeardividers exist etc... so i suppose in this digital case, everything is fine unless there is some point at which the gnd on a receiving something has pulled up so high that a high on the data line (0v at the far end of the resitive divider/gnd line) looks lower than the minimum digital high level (usually about half of what the high voltage is, give or take) then ya know, the data line looks like it never goes high)
theBearwow, that line sure got outta hand.. the explanation bit was sposed to be shorter than the first sentence ;-)
ZeroWalkerhmm, damn think i broke the lcd thing on the gameboy, seems the hsync signal isn't sent anymore, wonder if i short circuited it or something -_-
theBearweyland|yutani, err, korgath ?
weyland|yutanitheBear, yea you are right
weyland|yutanijumbled the name
n2Design decisions
n2Hate them
theBearZeroWalker, i can't remember what a gameboy lcd is like physically inside, but 9/10 lcd issues with similar missing-something-line symptoms have to do with some shitty conductive-rubber "connector strip" or cracked solder join on a chip or maybe pcd connector leg etc
SpeedEvil'zebra strips' or the like. The way I usually fix these is to take some isopropyl alcohol.
SpeedEvilPour it on the device, and light it on fire.
theBearweyland|yutani, only cos i stumbled on an old copy of errm, the pilot? i guess, something with the name attached to it, in my personal archives of sillyness and joy earlier today :)
SpeedEvilMore seriously, getting a good fix that lasts can be problematic
theBearSpeedEvil, heh, nicely dsif
SpeedEvilremoving and cleaning the strip and contacts with IPA can help, as well as sometimes turning the strip round.
SpeedEvilOr increasing clamping force a little.
theBearmmm, much like ffc and fpc style lead-pencil on wafer-thin crappy plastic tape that are so very popular in modern stuff, i still can't help but ask myself why they even exist, and what kind of defective thinking/new-ideas-brainstorming process could have possibly thought they were ever even worth experimenting with, letalone using en-masse
SpeedEvil'It's $.001 cheaper!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!'
ZeroWalkerwell thing is i think i broke it when i tried to connect it to the opi pins, and i connected the ground on the gb to the ground on the opi pin, as that's what you did with a logic analyzer. but i guess i might have messed it up
ZeroWalkerfeels weird that the hsync died but not the others, and the audio seems fine so the game is running
theBearhmmm, i spose now that i've un-runout my iso-alkyhol supply, i should clean all the blood off my good pointy+tiny tweezers, and that poor fresh-outta-the-packet stanley style razor-blade i was attempting to service my poor toe with before i went out
lambda443is the number of registers in a cpu determined by its address size? or is it just an architecture specific design choice?
theBearlambda443, i'm thinkin' arbitrary arch/model specific kinda choice
lambda443i think it's a lot easier to understand how cpu got to where they are now by studying historic cpus like the 8086 and the 80486 :D
SpeedEvillambda443: In most designs, the number of registers is fewer than the address size
SpeedEvillambda443: 486 is already a pile of crap
SpeedEvildo not look at it.
theBearwell, i spose not so arbitrary from the pov of the dude that is sitting down designing how the internals of the cpu itself actually work, ya know, the nasty low-level stuff that makes opcodes+data actually do stuff like move around between buses/addresses and registers and do all the other useful stuff like mathing with each other, ya know, so it becomes a cpu
DocScrutinizer05Shapeshifter: for such short wiring (aiui <5cm) you don't need to worry about any parallel or twisted pair
SpeedEvillambda443: there are some CPUs that have only registers, and no external memory
lambda443things are a lot simpler, no weird terms like pages and memory management :D
SpeedEvillambda443: 486 has pages, MMU, and is just as bad as a modern CPU
SpeedEvilWell, no speculative execution, and less cache wierdness.
DocScrutinizer05Shapeshifter: for sure parallel Vcc isn't a problem at all
SpeedEvilAnd less layers of crap.
lambda443SpeedEvil: you mean it's nearly just as complicated?
SpeedEvillambda443: yes.
theBearalso what little i know of even 486 aged x86 stuff that low down, yer already several iterations down a legacy-compat/based design, in several/most major cpu design-related
SpeedEvillambda443: It already has several modes on top of the original 8088, and fairly complex mmu and addressing modes.
SpeedEvilWith legacy support for 8088/286
SpeedEvil(it was largely just a fast 386 from software POV)
SpeedEvilWith integrated FPU on most parts.
lambda443i imagine that was somewhat of a selling point at the time? no need to rewrite huge amounts of asm code :D
ZeroWalkerif i connect ground it seems that hsync isn't detected at all on the logic analyzer. is it possible that the pin somewhere has a different charge or something compared to the others?
SpeedEvilZeroWalker: seems unlikely.
SpeedEvilZeroWalker: perhaps static damage changing the level of the pin. Or something else connected.
theBearSpeedEvil, heh, at least it had i dunno, a few hundred or probly thousand less added-on instruction sets, ya know, everything from yer mmx and later versions of, thru to the huge list of options any remotely current x86 arch cpu supports (tho i spose the integrated ?87 math copro was already the first big one of those, floating this and that and so on, like we both said already i spose, already several down the line of legacy support)
SpeedEvilDo you have a scope?
ZeroWalkerwell as i messed around i would imagine a static like damage occured
ZeroWalkersadly no
ZeroWalkeri only got a logic analyzer, will print screen the difference
SpeedEvilZeroWalker: you don't actually need hsync
SpeedEvilZeroWalker: If you've got vsync and clock
SpeedEvil(and the 'GPU' outputs a consistent number of pixels)
ZeroWalkerin a sense yeah, but hsync length differs
ZeroWalkerdepending on how many sprites etc are on the screen and some other factors
SpeedEvilYou mean it can outptu incomplete lines?
theBeareff yeah, i'm awesome, and not just a scope, but in recent years a quite decent collection of all kinds of multimeters, or maybe not so much a decent one, as a lotta choice, a meter for any occasion :-P
SpeedEviltheBear: do you have a meter to fight zombies with?
n2I have a question for you all!
theBearSpeedEvil, heh, good point on the line/h-sync, a whole bunch of us shoulda instantly thought of and mentioned that
ZeroWalkerfirst = ground connected from GB to logic analyzer
ZeroWalkersecond = no ground connected to the logic analyzer
theBearooh, serial digital rgb data lines ? how very unusual
ZeroWalkerD4 should be Hsync
ZeroWalkerD3 is vsync
ZeroWalkerthe others, not sure as i can't tell if i don't check the wires as they are so small;p
SpeedEvilAre you sure that the number of sync pulses per line differs.
SpeedEvilThat seems very unlikely
ZeroWalkersync pulses are 1 (hsync) per line
ZeroWalkerbut the length of it differs
n2I am making a dual supply for a thing of moderate power
ZeroWalkerand shouldn't i need to know when that ends so i can begin the next lline
n2(10 to 25 watts)...
ZeroWalkerelse i would have to kinda guess and to a estimation
n2And I can't decide whether to use a two-secondary ("center tapped") transformer, two rectifiers, regulators etc.
n2Or just go for a single (twice the voltage) secondary, regulate that
ShapeshiftertheBear: thanks for that explanation. not sure I followed entirely ^^
n2and split the rail to a virtual ground
ZeroWalkerbut what could be the problem, i mean, the only thing i can make of it is that with ground, the voltage is Higher than on the hsync pin so it doesn't want to go towards the analyzer
n2Which of thse two would you go for?
theBearZeroWalker, like SpeedEvil says, hsync is basically irrelevant unless yer doing some butchery like driving the display at a lower horizontal resolution than it physically/natively has pixels for.. think about it... every (horz-pixel-count) pixel-clock's (with associated pixel data's, but of course without the clock you can't really know how many data's have been sent) the lcd runs outta pixels so it gotta jump down to the next line
SpeedEvilZeroWalker: For almost all display controllers, hsync length will be constant, and you can simply count - for example - 24 pixels dead time after vsync, then 320 pixels of data, 3 pixels of dead time, 320 pixels of data for the next line
ZeroWalkerwait will give the info about the hsync
SpeedEvilCount how many sync pulses you get between vsyncs - is it consistent.
SpeedEvilclock pulses
n2(it's shown as MOSFETs because they are more easily parallelable)
theBearand re: different sync on different lines, what SpeedEvil said, that is unheard of in the history of pixel-based/scanning lcd technology, completely and across all technologies and interfaces
ZeroWalkerah could check that as that would make sense
ZeroWalkerwill just find the hsync thing first
ZeroWalkerbut i would like to solve the issue on the hardware (for learning purposes as well), i want to know what is wrong
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer05: I updated the diagram a bit, a bit smarter for shorter distances: So I'm going to use 1mm² for the red V+ & GND wires. And 0.14mm² for the green Signal & GND wires. But I'm wondering about the thickness I should use for the pink wires, that connect the short strips, and which are going to be V+ & Signal & GND. Should I go for 0.75mm² maybe?
SpeedEvilZeroWalker: it'sv ery hard to diagnose without a scope. In general, never do not connect ground, you can damage stuff
ZeroWalkerbut i think it broke when i did connect it to ground on the opi
SpeedEvilnn7: what are you using it for
ZeroWalkeri remember i connected it and then i checked the display and noticed it was messed up
ZeroWalkerso i turned it off and disconnected the stuff
SpeedEvilnn7: today the right answer is generally 'don't do that'.
DocScrutinizer05Shapeshifter: should probably do
ZeroWalkerthen it was fine, so i tried connecting the stuff again and it messed up after a bit
SpeedEvil(WRT high power split rails)
n2SpeedEvil, is nn7 me?
ZeroWalkerbut then it never went back
n2SpeedEvil, Ah. But...
n2It's barely going to be an ampere
ZeroWalkerwhat would the scope be able to help with in this case?
n2and I can add extra MOSFETs as needed
n2The alternative is several regulators and bridge rectifiers...
theBeardusty memories make me wanna say that in the early days of very much specific purpose/driving-source lcd's like that one is, that it wasn't unusual to see data without long h-sync and even many-line vsync gaps, cos ya know, there wasn't a chance the same data/timing would have to drive an actual crt or maybe vga-input lcd that expected to see that kinda stuff 'cos that's how it had always been cos displays had never really been
theBearpixel-accurate/perfect like lcds were
n2The reason why it's shown as MOSFETs is I don't have to worry about the output impedance of the opamp that much
n2and because they can be paralleled more easily than BJTs
SpeedEviln2: why do you need a split rail
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer05: does it actually make sense to use thing Signal & GND cables between the segments (the green wires)? Why not connect everything using the "pink" wires? i.e. V+ as well?
DocScrutinizer05Shapeshifter: pro tip: you also can powerfeed short stripes "reverse"
n2SpeedEvil, I need dual supplies; rail splitting is one way to do it.
n2But, it's an audio thing.
n2I could bias the living bejeezus out of it, but, meh, that has issues
DocScrutinizer05Shapeshifter: this would actually drastically improve the power losses situation
n2both transformer or RC-based biasing/coupling
ThePendulumgreat, I knew Conrad would shaft me >.> just found the cabinet I bought with them for 20eu for 13eu elsewhere, and they also sell the right dividers
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer05: you mean power all the short strips "from the middle", and only run signal/gnd on the outer ends? I think I was going for this layout so I only need 2 capacitors per hexagon. if I connect every strip, I'd need to attach a cap at every end. Or not use caps at all.
n2Also, I find the push-pull idea of the rail splitting attractive
n2I've left out a whole lot of assorted passives from both diagrams, they are only "conceptual drawings"
ThePendulumtbf it's Bulgaria, let me see if they can at least ship me the dividers
Shapeshifterno need for caps if there are only max. 9 leds anyway?
theBearSpeedEvil, ZeroWalker, i find a quick and easy kinda safe rule-of-thumb re: gnding scopes/analyzers, is to probe first without adding/connecting a probe-ground, and if yer get something that looks faiirly signal like (vs maybe some abstract ac-freq-noise stuff floating all over the place, like you might if you were probing something that wasn't already somehow gnd'd/referenced to your scope elsewhere) then don't connect any probe-gnd, both cos
theBearya don't need one, and cos that fact suggests it may well be "bad and dangerous" to add another
DocScrutinizer05you shouldn't over-engineer the buffer cap thing
DocScrutinizer05place one on every virtual original stripe
theBearheh, over-engineer eh ? that ain't really how retired cowboy theBear rolls <grin>
theBearhmm, do i trust a website to book a gp doc appt with my regular dude ? also, assuming my toe is already getting tetanus'ed from within, is waiting 2 days for a shot acceptable ?
SpeedEviltheBear: against that is the fact that one line is already dead
theBearlotta other docs, and even special nurses (for all that practical/hands-on stuff docs like to avoid doing if they can) at teh same place
_abc__Don't wait 2 days. Er should give you a tetanus shot on the spot
theBearSpeedEvil, mm ? you suggesting that a floating scope+probe mighta killed it ? surely teh massive probe impedance "guarantees" that can't happen ?
SpeedEviltheBear: it's a logic analyser, I'm assuming it's not a very expensive logic analyser with heavily isolated probes
theBearheh, i dunno if er is really appropriate for a something-ouchey in my toe that only left maybe 2mm neat slit when it entered\
SpeedEvilBut a cheap one with input protection diodes
theBearSpeedEvil, mmm good point
SpeedEviltheBear: are you getting any symptoms other than a small wound?
theBearpfft ok then, so we thinkin i book fer whoever is available first thing business hours in the morning
DocScrutinizer05Shapeshifter: maybe just use one cap per hexagon
theBearSpeedEvil, nah, but i was picking up something unrelated at my regular pharmacy earlier and he reminded me that IF it does turn out to be some rusty old metal that is in there, it better safe than sorry
Eduard_MunteanutheBear, when did you have your last tetanus shot?
_abc__Thebear walk/crawl to er and tell them you stepped on a rusty nail on dirty farm ground. That should make them give you one..
theBearhmmm, they got a Dr Mendelsohn, he sounds famous from history ? maybe i ask fer him <grin>
Eduard_MunteanuIt's usually large, soil/dirt contaminated wounds that are worrisome.
Eduard_MunteanuAlso you should get a tetanus shot every 5 years or so.
theBearEduard_Munteanu, can't remember, tho if i didn't get one when i had spine-surgery it could easily have been 10+ years... hmm, probly early 08 actually, 110km/hr headon carcrash, ambi, er, surely they woulda gimme one
_abc__Dr Mendelson - Bartholdy?
theBear5 years eh ? mm
ThePendulum"unbreakable polystyrene"
ThePendulumwatch me >.>
Eduard_MunteanuGet one, then. A small prick probably won't give you tetanus, but you're supposed to keep up with the shots..
theBearnup... Ralph ! and checkout his portait, quite striking i think eh. Heh aussie stuff
theBearEduard_Munteanu, mmm, general attitude since i was old enough to know what tetanus shots were, is that if yer ain't had one recently and yer get an injury, of just at somewhere they got em ready to go, that it can't hurt
theBearwell yeah, i ain't goin to another country to get my sore toe looked at <grin>
_abc__Other *continent*
theBeari don't care what first/given names their Dr Mendelsohn's have, it just feels excessive
spludtheBear, it's not _rust_ that is the issue - it is soil-borne pathogens. Thus, you're far more likely to get tetanus from gardening while you have a cut on your hand.
Eduard_MunteanuAny ER should be able to give you a shot, really.
theBearhmm, there is that new mutli-gp place the other side of the suburb i always forget about.. they're open late, got nice comfy new waiting couches and sofa-chairs, and the couple times i gone in for not-quite-er kinda after hours first-doc-you-got-will-do the docs always seemed perfectly competent
spludDisclaimer: I am not a medical doctor, I don't even play one on television, and that is not medical advise.
_abc__That's why I told thebear to mention rusty nail on *farm* soil
theBearsplud, i don't know how to garden, but this year my carpet in here, well, there could be quite literally just about anything down there\
Eduard_MunteanuI think you can even buy it in a pharmacy and have a GP or nurse give it to you. IIRC we have it in pharmacies here.
theBearsplud, hmmm.. maybe you should try playing one on tv... you might be really good at it ;-)
spludtheBear, "it can't hurt" ? Depends on if you have an aversion to needles, now doesn't it???
theBearmmm, er would definately give me one, but that's way down town, and ya know, they got real emergencies to deal with
theBearsplud, heh, can't argue with that logic
theBearsplud, kinda guaranteed to hurt a little bit, now i think about it
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer05: is this what you're suggesting?
theBearprobly less than whatever tetanus shots are sposed to stop making yer toe go mouldy and fall off, or whatever happens
spludYaeh, I'd make a great doctor. "This won't hurt, except when I jab you with this BIG EFFIN NEEDLE!"
ThePendulumdamn flux pens are expensive
DocScrutinizer05Shapeshifter: yes, exactly
spludThePendulum, avoid the Damn ones and just get the Chinesium ones. <g>
Eduard_MunteanutheBear, no, that's not what happens... essentially it's like being on strychnine, body spasms that break yer bones.
_abc__It won't go moldy. You'll die in horrible pain. Tetanus is somewhat like rabies. Don't f* with it.
DocScrutinizer05Shapeshifter: and you might want to place one cap in middle of each of those öong red power lines
spludafter you get one, you'll be saying "Damn, these Chinesium flux pens are cheap crap"
theBearThePendulum, you sure you need one ? very few situations i find that ever need additional flux like that, or at least that you can't 'work around' the lack of flux by involving some other kinda fresh fluxed solder of an appropriate time
Eduard_MunteanuNah, rabies is worse. At least tet only has a death rate of 10% or so with modern care.
DocScrutinizer05Shapeshifter: so either on 2nd or 3rd short stripe
theBearhmmm, spasms eh ? that don't sound so bad
spludTMJ. Lockjaw. That's one of Tetanus's creations.
theBearat least the sun don't hurt yer eyes
theBearerr, excessively that is
theBearand the shots to fix it a lot less nasty than rabies, from what i heard
_abc__Just one shot
spludNope, doesn't, not if you stay in a small room with artificial light all day.
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer05: How do I run the "red" wire between strips? I'd need to solder 2 wires to each pad, one "incoming", one "outgoing"? Or I guess I could use 2 3-way WAGO splitters at each end but that seems bulky
theBeari suspect this whole lockjaw business is just an urban myth.... noone ever seems to get it or see anyone else with hit
spludEver get a "Charlie horse" in your neck?
DocScrutinizer05Shapeshifter: I pondered for minutes already and don't have a single best solution. You gotta test what works best for you
Eduard_MunteanuTetanus is pretty rare, though it still happens. I don't think it was a major pest historically, and people got bruises all the time.
_abc__You can also get a very nasty bacterial infection from farm dirt @ wound
spludAnd lets' face it, in third world places where you're less likely to get treatment for certain injuries, they're also much less likely to autopsy to find out what did you in.
Eduard_MunteanuTetanus is pretty easy to diagnose I imagine.
SpeedEvilThere are various survey efforts done by NGOs and other bodies.
spludProlly kinda a bummer about the time the doctors can diagnose that you ALREADY have it.
Eduard_MunteanuI imagine the doc asking "Pretty tense, aren't we today?".
SpeedEvilFor example, for Polio, they track all cases (or try to) of paralysis.
ThePendulumtheBear: not sure, it's often been suggested as something to have at hand. I've only directly wondered if it could help me when I was trying to tin thick wires
DocScrutinizer05Shapeshifter: iirc the stripes have TH on the pads, right? Then I'd maybe even go for solder nails fitted and soldered from backside. Then slice the wire isolation carefully without cutting the copper braid, pull it apart 2mm and shove the copper braid over the nail and fix by soldering
ThePendulumbut that hasn't been a problem since I ditched all my CCA stuff
theBearShapeshifter, central-err-distribution ala 'star grounding' for gnd's and v+ lines does tend to guarantee the lowest practical max-current on any given supply lines, and is kinda neat and easy to follow and makes things like potential board removal/replacement in the future not-effect anything else (like daisy-chained lines between b oards would,) tho i suppose it would also use more wire length in total.. oh, final "advantage" for that kinda
theBearapproach would be that all boards are fairly equal, as far as any psu noise/voltage-drops/grounds-at-differing-potentials kinda stuff
splud"they" being doctors in first and second world countries?
SpeedEvilBecause there is a known non-polio background rate of paralysis, and knowing this rate and being able to track it means that they have good surveilance for when polio cases actually hit
SpeedEvil - also - yay.
SpeedEvil12 cases of wild polio this year, down from 27 so far last year.
theBearThePendulum, nah, i mean, in theory you could involve it, but unless yer using a gas bottle and a solid bar of old plumbers solder for yer tools, it'll only slow you down cos of tool/hand-swaps and things like that
SpeedEvil(and 400000 in 1980)
spludTake a walk on the wild side.
splud... while you can still walk.
Eduard_MunteanuProbably more considering it's also asymptomatic IIRC.
theBearsplud, erm, you mean a cramp, or a pulled/torn muscle/ligament/moving-part maybe ? cos a charlie horse is all about the fact that someone intentionally punched/donked you in some manner, to cause it, i pretty sure
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer05: what's "TH"? the strips look kinda like this But even with nails, I'd still need to solder 2 wires to each nail? or is there some sort of female header thing that fits on the nails and takes in 2 wires?
ThePendulumtheBear: even for SMD?
Eduard_MunteanuKinda like leprosy, which only 1% of people will actually develop despite contact.
ShapeshiftertheBear: not sure what you mean. star grounding?
theBearoh, unless yer mean the old throat/windpipe punch manouvere, ya know, quickly alarm and make someone really stop what they doing and worry about trying to breathe thru their semi-collapsed windpipey thinger
spludhuh, learn something new every day then - I thought charlie horses were those debilitating cramps.
DocScrutinizer05Shapeshifter: nevermind, no ThriHoles
DocScrutinizer05Shapeshifter: maybe listen to what theBear said
Eduard_MunteanutheBear, cramp
spludand not pulled/torn - can be laying in bed and then boom - leg (for instance) tenses up and there's no comfortable position.
ZeroWalkerwell kinda funny that i seems to get a correct image if i just ignore vsync and hsync all together and count the lines. though that's surely not valid as you can reset the line count etc on the gb programmatically
Johnsenlisten to the bear
Johnsenwhen he's calling for you
spludand ironically, punching it seems to be the best remedy.
DocScrutinizer05theBear: solder a single wire pair to each stripe and het them all connected at one point
Johnsenlisten to the bear, there's nothing else you can do
ziongateJohnsen: seems a nice song :)
theBearShapeshifter, popular audio 'buzzword', but think like modern ethernet with a hub connecting all the nodes, vs old coax bus-style ethernet, where things aren't all connected to each other (or in electronics case a ground and maybe powersupply voltage) in a fairly equal/similar manner, ya know ?
ShapeshiftertheBear: I see. run individual cables to each strip.
Johnseni need to find (green) makeup this evening
Johnseni think i'm gonna go as the hulk
Johnsenits easy
theBearsplud, drink more indian tonic water... it tastes frickin' awesome, and it's fizzy, and it got a bunch of quinine in it
Eduard_MunteanuJohnsen, dressing as a... PCB?
Johnsentoo late
DocScrutinizer05Shapeshifter: solder a single wire pair to each stripe and het them all connected at one point
Johnseni have 1 evening left
Johnsenso hulk is easiest
Johnsenjust need to paint myself green and rip my tshirt :p
abcabcuntil metamorphosis?
Eduard_MunteanuJohnsen, do you have what it takes, underneath?
ziongateJohnsen: or set up a big dress done of green smd leds
Eduard_MunteanuAlthough paint can fix that too.
Johnseni'll see, i have some elwire and rgb ledstrips
Johnsenand a powerbank that may explode in my pocket
ZeroWalkercan i flash the stm32 with a boot loader via a opi?
Johnsenwho is opi?
ziongateJohnsen: sounds of sure effect ;)
spludYea, I'm a fan of tonic with Quinine. Not a gin and tonic kinda guy though.
ZeroWalkeropi = orange pi
theBearShapeshifter, one example why it might be a good idea (for you to judge in this case) aside from the wire-thickness/current-capacity stuff i mentioned earlier, imagine in what you gotta change/add if you wanted to temporarily (or permanently i spose) remove one of the led boards at a later time.. you gonna have to do extra work after you remove it to not mess up everything else working while it ain't there
spludQuinine though has to do with malaria.
Johnsenif it has a serial port its good enough to flash a stm32
Shapeshifterthe strips often use the kinds of connectors visible here: maybe I can find a matching plug that has 2 wires out each end, like those molex plugs often shipped with case fans: Actually, why not use molex cables...
ShapeshifterSolder a molex female end to each strip, then use molex cables to connect them.
Johnsenstm32 should have a serial flasher in rom if you change the BOOT pins
ShapeshiftertheBear: yes that's true. But the "boards" aren't really separated. that's just in the image.
ZeroWalkerchange boot pins?
spludZeroWalker, I've never tried, but since an opi is a full-on linux system (well, if you're running linux on it), don't see why you couldn't get the tools to do it.
JohnsenBOOT0 and BOOT1
Johnsenif set properly it'll boot in flashing mode listening to the serial port
Johnsenbut still easier to use a stlink
ZeroWalkerisn't it always listening to the serial port for flashing?
theBeari like tonic alone, and i like it with gin... gin is kinda special, cos unless i all delirious with the lockjaw, i do believe gin+tonic is the only alcahol/cocktail drink or even regular nighttime-kinda drink, that glows under them slightly-uv disco "blacklights", which makes you look kinda superfly walking thru the darkened room, with yer drink glowing like the sun in yer hand, while everyone else looks down at their own and is suddenly
theBeardisappointed and feeling all not-superfly <grin>
ZeroWalkerand the bootloader can set it up so you can use the device via usb
theBearShapeshifter, i ain't arguing in any direction, just ya know, making sure you know yer options
ZeroWalkerhere is the opi pins:
Eduard_MunteanuBenzos do get used to treat lockjaw, alcohol might work too.
ShapeshiftertheBear: sure, thanks ^^
Johnsenthe stm32F1 does not have usb bootloader tho, only serial
Johnsenyou could add your own bootloader i guess but bleh
nickromancer#1 reason people think americans have small dicks: the number is smaller in inches
spludtheBear, might look superfly until you stub your toe on that pile of boxes with parts in 'em, and go headlong across the room...
spludBut don't worry, nobody saw it, because the party is all in ya head.
ZeroWalkerwhy wouldn't you want a usb bootloader, seems neat as you need the usb anyway to power the thing
ZeroWalkeror i guess you can power it with serial as well as it has 3.3 and gnd
theBearhmm, i don't keep benzos on hand/prescription anymore.. that effing supervised (and very willing) withdrawl process was an unbelievable effing drawn out painful nightmare of a period.. so ya know, only on special occasions now
Johnsenyou can but thats your own problem
ZeroWalkerbut is the serial SPI?
spludnickromancer, We're a bigger dick than you. Just look at our 'elected' leader.
Johnsenit's not part of the rom
Johnsenthere's 2 methods to flash a STM32 without fancy bootloader, stlink or serial
nickromancersplud: why do you have to bring politics into my joke
theBearsplud, hot-damn ! soundsl ike i'm having a better time than i'm aware of ... frickin awesome !
archivistsplud, elected dick
Johnsennot spi, just uart
theBearACTION * non-democratic dick !!
Johnsenwho is gonna get kicked
theBearnah, everything it seems, is o.k ... just wanted to get in on the whole "i'm a big dick" contest :)
Johnseni'm a sad panda
Johnsenone of my colleagues got fired today apparently
Johnsenand i found out he just made his gf pregnant
spludyou're not a big dick unless you ban someone. Clearly you don't have a firm grasp on dickness.
theBearhehe, you want me to do the little shuffle and sing yer the special cheerup sad-panda song ?
Johnsenmost likely an accident, they're only together few months
Johnsenpoor girl really, the guy is not dad material
theBearsplud, heh, those bold words for someone who only got some 'elected leader' on their list of big dick qualifications :-O
spludACTION kinda gets image of a Kodiak or Brown bear when I think theBear, but just realized - are you a Koala or Panda instead?
Johnsenhe's one of those chav types that doesn't have a sense of humour and therefor is always a bit passively aggressive
spludMunchin on eucalyptus leaves and being buzzed all day?
abcabcsplud dropbear
Johnsenalways thinks ppl are looking for a fight or offending his honour
SpeedEvilwaterbears can survive vacuum for months
Johnsenthey can survive a lot of things
Johnsenimmortal! ;)
theBearconceptually i'm a kinda big brown traditional style bear like yer were thinking, that's how i first got the name long looooong ago, but at the same time, the idea for the name that fit me for the conceptual reasons, was a little white kinda err, fictional teddybear kinda dude who is right into chequered trousers and scarfs and such
weyland|yutaniJohnsen, sounds more like a ego problem
Johnseneducation problem
Johnsenhe grew up in brussels between ppl of a culture without humour and huge honour feelings
PeyamI try to connect to my plc using ix developer. I choose CoDesys in choose controller but it never come up. I have a ip adress to in windows and whel connecting in codesys I connect to plc using
Johnsenand he took it over
theBearsplud, so yeah, if that err,helps to un-clarify things, you're welcome
ZeroWalkerhmm so if i connect like this
DocScrutinizer05Shapeshifter: if you could get those special stripe connectors that would be the best solution for sure
ZeroWalkerto this: (top right)
Johnsenso many quesyions
DocScrutinizer05Shapeshifter: when you're lucky somebody sells them
ZeroWalkerthough i guess power can be skipped if it's powered by micro usb
weyland|yutanipeyam: maybe your firewall is blocking it?
theBearmmm, local store had those little new cheap zero pi things when i visited today.... anyone know roughly what the cpu is like ? maybe arm v-something series and clock rate at least ?
Johnsengoogle knows
Peyamweyland|yutani: I do connect with codeSys but not with ix developer. and I have global variable in the plc program . These should be imported as tags
weyland|yutaniPeyam, i thought its not connection from your windows machine to your plc
Johnsenrpi zero isnt too weak, it emulates NES :p
Johnsenyesterday i installed CP/M on my esp8266 woop
Johnsen12Mhz z80 and 64k ram
theBearnot 'cos i'm at all into the whole pi hype, just cos i noticed something useful that i could do with a fairly shitty by today's standards teeny-puter of any kind, but that would be a whole ton simpler and more straightforward if it had a bunch of io exposed, and composite/tv-ish out kinda lines and a few other things on there are bonuses too
Johnsenits faster than a real cp+m machine :p
DocScrutinizer05Shapeshifter: then there are also wago clamps that have a lever to (un)lock them, and those can take stranded wire, so you could twist two 0.75mm^2 wire ends to go into one place on wago
Johnsenbut cp/m is a bit boring
Johnsenit runs ladder, mbasic and zork
weyland|yutaniPeyam, what is this gateway? router? switch?
Johnsenand the esp stores 15 disk images, its pretty nice really
Peyamweyland|yutani: switch
weyland|yutanican you ping your plc? or scan with zenmap if its even there?
Peyamweyland|yutani: yes I can ping it.
theBeareffin tiny little thing in the flesh that zero pi whatever it called... smaller than most stupiduino boards or even thingslike teeny weeny serial-interface or io breakout kinda boards that i seen, not much more than most of them, probly less than several, but it's a real computer, instead of a ton of retarded OO libs and OO code on a foolishly designed + implemented thingy with a stupid sounding name
Peyamweyland|yutani: is it the right address and port in ix developer? I have the same port as the previuse pic and same ip adress of plc
weyland|yutaniPeyam, and it works in codesys?
theBearhmm, ok, i spose pi is stupid sounding too, but the stupid is a lot less letters <grin>
Peyamweyland|yutani: yes
Johnsenrpi0 is popular these days to put in gameboy cases
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer05: yes, that's an option.
SpeedEvil Wireless IoT, Bluetooth® Low Energy, 4½ Digit, 100kHz True RMS Digital Multimeter
theBearpffft, tho, i spose that would be a kinda cool looking teeny-laptop, but i ain't got enough sparetime or formerly expensive discarded tech for that noise... i'm just some crazy guy that noticed a combo of two things that would fit together and do a certain thing, just a lot cheaper and smaller than the 2 things would traditionally have been
Peyamweyland|yutani: i gotta change something brb
SpeedEvilIn case it might interest anyone. Oh - I thoguht it had a teeny display
cheaterhey theBear
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer05: any idea what a "bus bar" is called in german ^^
SpeedEvilI hate the Pi Zero.
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer05: i.e. a multi-way splitter with 10+ connectors?
SpeedEvilIt's not free availability, and is intended only for bait+switch and steering people away from otehr platforms.
Johnseni want a vt220!
cheaterpi zero is not free availability?
weyland|yutaniShapeshifter, sammelschiene
JohnsenCP/Ming inside a serial terminal in a modern OS is just not the same :p
cheaterSpeedEvil: yeah that dmm does look like it has an lcd but it's the battery clip. how does it display anything?
SpeedEvilcheater: bluetooth
cheateroh via bluetooth
cheatermeh @ that
theBearyo cheater :-) sorry i keep missin yer, and nah, not spotted yet, and like most of my recent days, i should already be doing other stuff now, just that getting some very pointy stupid thing jammed in my big toe thisafternoon has kinda made me a bit adrenalined or similar, and also in need of a little sit-rest fairly often
Shapeshifterweyland|yutani: thanks
SpeedEvilcheater: I mean I could see it would be handy as an option, but not generally as the only option
ZeroWalkeri don't get the jumper boot thing, how do i know when it's set, i mean it's just a big thing that covers 4 pins, and 2 are apparently one boot mode
Johnsenread the dataseet
cheatertheBear: can i msg you quick
Johnsenthere's boot from flash, boot from ram, and boot into serial flashing tool
cheaterSpeedEvil: agreed
Johnsenand u just need to set it to boot into serial flashing tool
Johnsenbut just buy a stlink clone, its the easiest and no need to change jumpers
theBearon the upside, i'm pretty darned sure i'm finally gonna start vacuuming again, very soon, maybe even tonight... as opposed to err, not vacuuming, like i suspect i been doing for more than a couple years now, kinda fell outta the habit after spine-surgery, and one excuse led naturally into the next, and now here we are,disgustingly complicated mix of things where there should only be nice short pile carpet and the odd tiled area, and a mystery
theBearEFFING PAINFULL and thoroughly stuck thing in the only big toe we got that can still feel or move on its own :(
ZeroWalkerJohnsen, well the datasheet doesn't really show much except telling there's 3 modes lol xd
JohnsenACTION refuses to give any further explanation on things that can be foubd on google
cheatervacuuming is a bitch
Johnsenyou call vacuuming a bitch?
ZeroWalkeryeah ordered one ages ago, but not sure when i will get that, the stm32 took forever
Johnseni had to remove liquid poop from my floor in the weekend
Johnsen(from my dog, not from me)
brktcheater: amen to that
cheateri keep like the minimum of things on the floor and it's still annoying
cheateri need more shelves and racks and stuff
brkti havent cleaned my room in like 4 months
brkti'm going crazy
Johnsenfew weeks ago i removed the carpet, i was like my living looks larger without carpet
cheateri try not to get that far
theBearJohnsen, not at all, and during the non-vacuuming period, i've even inherited a much upgrade machine, which i since fitted fresh shiny new filters and bag and everything into, literally been sitting neatly behind where the front door opens for well over a year now
SpeedEvilI have finally gotten down to actual floor. Which is nice
Johnsenluckily, otherwise i had all the poop on the carpet
theBearoh, he called it a bitch
cheateri did have stuff happen like what theBear is talking about
cheateri mean who hasn't
Johnseni am a robot
theBearcheater, heh, if people weren't regularly asking themselves that, i think i'd feel that i hadn't really been ya know, doing the do that i do do (hehe, i said doodoo)
Johnseni dont even have cardboard boxes enough to make a robot costume
cheatertheBear: lol
DocScrutinizer05theBear: visit a doctor, dude! NOW!
SpeedEvil -< johnsen
Johnsenonly vacuum clean if the sand under your feet starts getting too annoying
Johnsennot enough materials for that tho
Johnsenmaybe i should just roll myself in alu foil :p
theBearDocScrutinizer05, seriously ? i can't wait less than 12 hours (about 14 or 15 since the initial ouch) for my shot ?
theBeari really should be running very nearly (literally) all my clothes to the laundromat dryers before they start to stink, and probly obtain some food before it's too late
cheatertheBear: yeah food is important
Johnseni need to fix my tv
cheatertheBear: btw this guy suggests taking a lot of manganese for what i thought you had
Johnsenbut i'm prob just gonna china a whole psu instead of troubleshooting it
cheaterherniated discs, weak ligaments, etc
Johnsenaka old ppl trouble
cheaterthere's a lot of other old people trouble
Johnsen"its gonna rain, i can feel it in my elbow"
splud"it's gonna rain... somewhere. I can feel it in my ankle"
cheatertheBear: put like two teaspoons of ceylon cinnamon in your food every day to get some manganese. or get chelated manganese pills (not elemental manganese)
cheatersplud: haha
spludpossibly on mars.
Johnsenmanganese woop
Johnsenmuch manga
theBearaww yeah, this magnoplasm stuff i just grabbed outta the draw.. my pharmacist buddy i saw for unrelated reasons earlier said that can help make it naturally come out without ya know, tools and such, and my jar only expired 10 years ago according to the stamp, but that only potentially tells me what material is in there, if it works, and probly slower than when my regular docs open in the morning tomorrow
Johnsenanyway, time to pee and smoke
Eduard_MunteanuI have a lil bottle of KMnO4 somewhere.
cheaterthat guy (dr berg) has a shitload of really good videos on staying healthy. he's the best
theBearhmm, mr salty pete-manganese eh ? i spose he musta got married or something
theBearACTION ain't real good at the old chemistry, no sir
cheaterhe actually brings his wife onto the videos every now and then
spludstep 1: have money. Lots of it. A comfortable lifestyle means you won't be exposed to a bunch of the things that hurt you.
cheatershe's fun
Johnsenlike the 90s?
cheaterbeen following his channel for some time now
cheatersplud: lol not true
Johnsenwhen there was just lsd, xtc and weed :p
spludand if you get liver damage from drinking, at least it was the good stuff.
Johnsennone of that fancy new stuff
spludyea, of course, there's tennis elbow.
Johnsenanyway bbsoon
spludAnd driving your Bugatti into a wall can hurt you.
spludBut these are first world problems, and you wanna be #1.
kcrowpillz can help
theBearmum and dad moved the amilcar to mums house basement not far from here on the weekend
theBeari never really tried to drive that one yet, tho i pretty sure at least several of yer controls are far from what we used to these days, ratched levers and little knobs marked funny things like "retard" <grin>
theBeari bet if i really needed to, i could get it to run into a wall one way or another
theBearhmm... i'd need to workout where the crank lives first i spose, cos ya know, even old cars don't do much if you can't start the engine
theBearorright (oh, and pfft, herniated disks, hyper-flexible-everythings, alcahol-nearly-killed livers, i got all that stuff already and it don't seem to slow me down too much) i ain't got a confirmation on any "must have a shot before business hours tomorrow" when requested, so i'm gonna finish my washing and find some food, so i at least got pants to wear in the morning when i get my shot ;-)
cheatertheBear: oh i didn't realize you stepped on some stuff with your toe, i thought you meant you got like an injection or something
kcrowI haven't seen a retard contol in quite a while, have seen choke levers more recently
theBearyeah, something very ouchey, fairly stiff/solid, and very thin/sharp at least on one end, is thoroughly in the front end of my big toe, like, i probly couldn't get it out even if i could novacaine the whole thing so it didn't take all my resolve and concentration to even touch the not-quite-exposed outer end of the th ing, and my balls does it piss blood and hurt way too much if i try to grip it with teeny grippers
ThePendulum"The shipping cost will be calculated after processing your order"
ThePendulumoh that's nice, so I have no idea what I need to pay in shipping before I actually order >.>
theBearthat's how they get yer ~! also, i'm already gone, you probly got lockjaw and you just hallucinating this witty rambling here
kcrowI got a nice glass shard in my toe a couple years ago, made it tough to walk back home
kcrowwhat I pulled out looked scary
kcrowof course, I was much tougher then. . . . . .
ecstasyis there a tool that takes schematics drawn to be intentionally confusing and converts them to standard form>?
ZeroWalkerwell at least i guess i connected the stm32 to the orange pi and changed the boot mode, but seeing the device is another story xd
Johnsenwhats the situation with ch340 on windows? :p does it need drivers?
DocScrutinizer05theBear: "now" because there's really no point in delay. Any doctor is supposed to treat pain issues on priority, any time. And odds are it's not going to get easier when you wait another 12 or 18h
Shapeshiftersuper annoying that there are no 4-way or 6-way wago clamps -.-
bobo1on1seems like they only do prime numbers
Shapeshifterthese things any good?
weyland|yutaniShapeshifter, the have the same specs as wago
kmciagood mornin
Shapeshifterweyland|yutani: do you know how easy it is to remove a cable from one of these? since they don't have clamps, it seems, but are just "push-in"
Shapeshifterweyland|yutani: can I just rip them out if necessary?
weyland|yutaniShapeshifter, its twist and pull
DocScrutinizer05and seem to only match solid wire
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer05: no it's flex as well 14-22awg
Shapeshifterweyland|yutani: thanks
DocScrutinizer05ACTION wonders how you twist+pull a stranded wire
weyland|yutaniShapeshifter, there a 2 types of stranded wire
X230tHey all c:
weyland|yutaniShapeshifter, well there are lots of stranded but what i mean if very fine you need special clamps and a more coarse one which behaves more like thin solid wire
weyland|yutaniShapeshifter, its called compact strand
Shapeshifterweyland|yutani: I see
weyland|yutaniShapeshifter, wire for PV often use those
ShapeshifterI found a semi-elegant way using wago 5-way clamps
ZeroWalkerViper-7, you there?
ecstasybut what is it
ecstasythe tool
ecstasyto solve the prob
Shapeshifterecstasy: i'll post a pic in a moment...
ecstasyShapeshifter, thank you. This will save my grade and prevent me from losing another 1k usd and retake, I really appreciate it
bart416My week is turning out okish, lol
bart416Playing with designing a ceramic hybrid, heheh
bart416It's funny how cheap LTCCs got
ecstasyShapeshifter, any progress?
Shapeshifterecstasy: still drawing.
Shapeshifterecstasy: but it's just a tree really.
Shapeshifteryou'll have closure soon :3
ecstasythank you
ecstasythis is going to save me for the exam today
kmciamy wife is starting at google today
kmciashe's on the shuttle bus right now
ecstasymy grade was really in trouble, so I thank you for the help Shapeshifter
ecstasyyou're saving me a LOT of time and money
ecstasyalready my 2nd time in this one
weyland|yutanikmcia, that sounds like a bad thing?
Shapeshifterecstasy: what are you going on about
ecstasythis circuit analysis
archivistbart416, did you see part of the old HP archive got burnt
Shapeshifterecstasy: circuit analysis??
ecstasyyes, is this the wrong channel
ecstasyI'm trying to find the thevenin equivalent of this circuit
Shapeshifterecstasy: I don't have any idea what you're talking about
Shapeshifterecstasy: you got the wrong guy
mitmfif i plug in solder to socket continuously, then fire will occur?
mitmfbecause it is too cold, so i want to heat room with solder
n2mitmf, not likely
n2you'll ruin your soldering iron
n2Heat + air + metal = oxidized metal = no more soldering
mitmfi don’t care if i m warm
ecstasyit doesnt put out enough watts to heat the room
ecstasyits useless
n2Light some candles
n2They put out much more heat
mitmfroom is too cold
mitmfso i will warm room with iron
n2It won't work
ThePendulumit doesn't? hmm
mitmfbut i m afraid that there will be fire
ThePendulumI do feel like my room gets quite hot after a night of soldering, I should measure some time
n2mitmf, Buy a fucking candle
n2or buy an electric radiator for $5
ecstasyI found some text related to that: Looking at Amazon, I see that tea candles are a wax cylinder about 1.5 inches in diameter and * 0.5 inches tall. Volume of a cylinder is pi * r**2 * h = 0.883 cubic inches or 14.45 cm**3. The density of paraffin wax is 0.9 g/cm**3, so we're looking at 13.03 grams of wax. The energy content of paraffin is about 42 kJ/g, so we're looking at 547kJ. There are 0.277 watt-hours per kJ, so we've got about 152
ecstasywatt hours.
ecstasyIf you're looking for the power, the amazon tea candles claim 4-5 hours, so 152 watt hours / 4.5 hours or about 33.8 watts on average. It would take just over 42 tea candles to match the thermal output of a 1440 watt space heater (12A at 120V).
ThePendulumalso why would it ruin the iron? wouldn't you have it on while soldering anyway, often continuously?
mitmf##electronics member can help me to send me money?
n2ThePendulum, what do you do when you solder?
n2you put solder on it, effectively
n2which contains fresh metal, and flux
n2which removes the oxidized stuff
ThePendulumbut the tin doesn't really burn off does it?
n2It -oxidizes-
n2it becomes a non-solderable substance
ecstasyThePendulum, its a well established fact that leaving an iron runnign ruins the tip
ecstasythey can be somewhat restored but its not ideal
n2You can use tip tinners but it'll never be as good
n2the surface will be dodgy
ThePendulumhow do you deal with this then if you solder full time as part of your work?
n2ThePendulum, by... soldering with it?
n2There is a difference between leaving it hot
ecstasykeep fresh solder on the tip and shut it off when not in use
n2and actually continually applying fresh metal and flux
n2Also, ThePendulum
n2The tip will slowly degrade, so
ThePendulumso just make a small tin feeder that keeps dripping fresh solder over the tip :P
n2you buy a new tip
ecstasyI wrap a small piece of solder around the tip so it melts on as it heats up, I clean and tin before shutting the iron off
mitmfif i save solder, then i will die for cold weather.
mitmf##electronics member can help me to send me money?
ThePendulumwhile working I still have it sort of idling for maybe half an hour or so
ecstasyhow much?
ThePendulumnot sure how much time 'long' is
n2mitmf, I did not know they spoke that poor troll english in antarctica
n2ThePendulum, that will definitely shorten the lifespan
mitmf$10 / person * 877 person = $8,770
n2So we should all give you mitmf based on the fact you have to heat using a soldering iron?
n2If you're near death
n2How about pawning the iron
n2And buying, i don't know, an electric radiator?
n2What's next, are you a nigerian prince whose credit cards got lost in an unfortunate luggage handling incident?
ThePendulumor a fire
ThePendulumturn the stove on or something, lol
n2ThePendulum, no, no
n2the only object capable of heating
n2is that one soldering iron
ThePendulumI mean if you buy like 9 more soldering irons I'm sure it'll work
ThePendulumcould put one under your pillow for the night
n2Holy fucking shit
bart416<archivist> bart416, did you see part of the old HP archive got burnt <-- Yes :(
bart416I'm cheering myself up by going HP style ceramic hybrid :P
mitmf##electronics people will never see me, if i die for cold weather or fire.
ecstasyavg iron is 45w or so
ecstasyit would take a lot of irons to heat a room
mitmfi have only one iron of 40 w
ThePendulumhow big is your room?
ecstasyI'm running a 1500w space heater right now in 500 sq feet and I'm cozy
mitmf3 m * 4 m
ThePendulumif you sell the house and live in a box you'll have money for another iron and I'm sure the two of them could heat the box
mitmfThePendulum: but i m serious, death is near
ThePendulummitmf: then contact family or your local authorities, seek out a shelter, not a bunch of electronics enthousiasts
mitmf$10 / person * 876 person = $8,760 then i can live more
SpeedEvilElectric blanket at 45W can keep you quite toasty
ThePendulumecstasy: hmm I have an 80ft² room and I do feel like my 60W iron heats it up a /little/ bit, I'll measure some time
ThePendulumwhen the window, shutters and door are closed
SpeedEvilThePendulum: you will heat the room up significantly more
ThePendulummore than what?
SpeedEvil(typical thermal power of a human is ~100W)
ThePendulumoh, me personally
ThePendulumyes, but I do that regardless of whether I'm soldering
mitmfdeath is near, if i can’t get help from ##electronics
ThePendulumwell rip mitmf, we had a good one
ShapeshifterWell... I'd need 46 WAGO 5-way splitters for this. That's like 50 bucks worth of splitters.... ;_;
mitmfi think that this channel have rich or ceo
ziongateneed help to debug a fpd-link signal
ThePendulumShapeshifter: actually about 20eu at the store I bought them
ziongateit is coming out from a lvds -> fpd-link converter
ThePendulumnot sure which wagos you have in mind though
ziongatedo you think i can see something useful by scope ?
ThePendulum25 for €10,62
ShapeshifterThePendulum: 35.70 CHF yeah swiss pricing.
ThePendulumconrad tends to be quite overpriced though
kmciaswitzerland tends to be quite overprice :P
ThePendulumyeah I was just thinking that too
ThePendulumprobably just swiss things
abcabcACTION nods twice
ShapeshifterThePendulum: you're right, they're cheaper elsewhere
mitmfdeath is near, ##electronics people reject me to escape from death :( time to die.
Shapeshifter16 CHF for 25 actually
ThePendulumbut I got assortment cabinets from conrad for 20eu that I just spotted elsewhere for 13eu and that store also sells the right dividers
ThePendulummitmf: dude, either a) proof you are actually dying and suggest a solid plan for us to help you, or b) move on
ShapeshifterThePendulum: btw I decided away from that FadeCandy board and will just use the rpi directly to control the leds. should work.
ThePendulumdid you have it already? I mean don't let me discourage you, I was just curious what it does :P
ShapeshifterFadeCandy is very unflexible. only supports 3-pin RGB, WS2812 basically
ThePendulumbut the Pi should indeed work fine
ShapeshifterThePendulum: no I hadn't ordered it yet
ThePendulumah yeah, the Pi directly can run the clocked WS2801 and APA102 as well
ShapeshifterThePendulum: I'm now aiming for SK6812 RGBW
ThePendulumand ws2813
Shapeshifterwhich, luckily, is supported by
mitmfif i don’t log in tomorrow, then death will be occur to me .
mitmfbe happy
ThePendulumstay strong
ThePendulumShapeshifter: I think it would've worked either way, might've just had to programmatically swap the colors around
mitmfThePendulum: thanks
ThePendulumoh wait, the white channel
mitmf:) i will, but too cold
ThePendulumACTION throws a blanket
kmciai'm (re)watching Real Genius
kmciathe guy uses a test clip for wide DIP to mess w/ a computer
SpeedEvilACTION was just reading "The Martian" and was annoyed by the orbital mechanics
kmciathen they take out another chip and put it in an EEPROM writer
abcabcSpeedEvil: annoyed in a good way? >EVA?
kmciathey actually went to some effort to make this movie accurate
ThePendulumShapeshifter: I'm using that lib for my Go led project, bit annoying though as you can't really cross-compile a specific type of C lib (or something like that, has been a while since I looked at it)
mitmfdon’t lament my death :( be happy
ThePendulumI'll light a candle for you
mitmfThePendulum: thanks can you hellp me with $10?
ThePendulumnot without very good reason I'm afraid
abcabcemo exit kit is $2. you wanna live!
ThePendulumif you can write me an efficient math expression parser for aurora/ara I can spare $10
mitmfi m pretty girl if i help me then i will find you to meet you for thanks in the future
ThePendulumyou can get more than $10 then :P
ThePendulumnot from me specifically, but in general
mitmfi think that it is my last time of log in
mitmfi turn on iron no to die
mitmfbut i never get help
mitmfnot to die
ThePendulumwhat you could do is clean the iron, stick it in a cup of water and make some tea to keep you warm
ThePendulumor die without having to freeze to death
mitmf##electronics people can save me.
mitmfbecause many people is here
cheaterwhy the hell does a g22 lamp base cost > 15 euro
cheaterit's a piece of ceramic
abcabckeep looking
spludcheater - because out there, some guy believes there's someone who will need the part.
spludIncluding a service guy who is charging someone a LOT more just to show up, so parts cost is the least of their worries.
mitmfit is time to go to heaven
mitmfThePendulum: you can help me
mitmfyou can do it
ThePendulumI can't even help myself mate
mitmfbut you will not die now
mitmfbut i will die for colder weather after 10 min
spludmitmf, some random IRC channel isn't the place to go if you're suicidal. There are phone numbers or websites you can visit to talk with someone who understands the issues.
ThePendulumsplud: I don't think he's trying to off himself, he's pretending to be freezing to death
ThePendulumunless he means he's going to commit suicide by sitting in a freezer
mitmfwhat channel have many rich?
mitmfonly poor live here
Shapeshifterthey like playing with money
ThePendulumhaha this photo of the destruction of our local supermarket
spludwith VIRTUAL money. A currency their local utility company does not accept for their high electricity bills.
mitmfthanks Shapeshifter
spludThePendulum, that's a false ceiling. How is moving a panel to the side to look above for wiring "destroying" ?
abcabcchannel of po' aliexpress and free part samplers
ThePendulumsplud: exhibit B
KeithWeissharwhy does the AM radio emit a high pitch whine when used near the Braun 790cc clean and renew station during the drying cycle?
spludAlso, shelves behind them are devoid of items.
spludRemodel in progress.
SpeedEvilKeithWeisshar: becuase it emits modestly high amounts of RF
spludFrom the sign, they sell roasted hamsters?
SpeedEvilFrom the context of a radio anyway
ThePendulumsplud: pretty much yeah
spludI note in second picture, they've kept the all-important coffee machine on site.
KeithWeissharthe high pitch whine occurs during the heat inductive drying cycle
SpeedEvilKeithWeisshar: yes. Ignore it or move the radio away, or stop using it
ThePendulumsplud: it seems like an attempt by a 65 year old to make a marketing campaign for the youth
ThePendulumsplud: not sure if you have this term in English, "hamsteren" is essentially to stock up, like a hamster does with their cheeks
abcabc65yo can do better marketing than hipster youth
MrCrackPotBuildeHi i have a few projects ive been building and tbh im getting bored of the standard color on the pcb. Any one know any where to get different colors like purple
KeithWeissharhow does the drying system in braun clean and renew station work?
ThePendulumabcabc: true, I guess a 25 year old would fair more horrible because he's still out of touch, but also inexperienced
ThePendulumI have no idea what I actually tried to write there
KeithWeissharthere is no fan, braun calls it active heat inductive drying
ThePendulumfare worse?
ThePendulumsplud: I mean they are indeed going to rebuild it into another store chain, but it's a fairly destructive process I'd argue
ThePendulumjust thought the pic was funny with him somewhat sticking into the ceiling
abcabcThePendulum: here they don't close the supermarket while remodding. disastrous.
ThePendulumwell it'll be a completely new chain, the gear they have is all at least 22 years old (coolers, cash registers, floors, racks etc.), I don't think they want to take anything with them
ThePendulumthey also broke through the inner walls, only the actual building is still up, would be pretty hard to do this without closing it down
abcabcyou'd be surprized
ThePendulumlol, would be fun in the morning trying to restock through the same door they're hauling all the old stuff out and the new stuff in
abcabcdust curtain then jackhammer away behind it
ThePendulumabcabc: the new store actually put up a shuttle bus to one of their other stores
ThePendulumafaik it's free, pretty coo
abcabcthat is common yes
ThePendulumespecially for older people who can no longer drive or walk far
birkoffI got this wifi light switch coming with 3 input but my regular switch only has 2 wires in use , can anyone help ?
venthe1650hello. I intend to make UPS power supply for microcontroller using either NIMH or SLA batteries I was wondering if you know any method to control charging modes for those batteries (switch between constant current/constant voltage)
spludpart way down that page, it indicates some models are equipped with a "Sabbath Mode".
splud"Some Frigidaire models come equipped with a Sabbath mode that you can engage when observing this day. When turned on, several of the refrigerator's controls are disabled. Even with this mode engaged during the Sabbath, the high temperature alerts can still come on."
splud"When the refrigerator is in Sabbath mode, the alarm turns itself off after two minutes of beeping, but the high temperature icon stays red until you exit this mode and reset the alarm, even though the refrigerator continues normal operation. To enter or exit Sabbath mode, you must press the "∨" and "+" simultaneously for five seconds."
Shapeshiftersplud: there are many modern devices that support such modes. people get very creative when trying to observe but also get around made-up rules.
Shapeshifterlike you're not allowed to *operate* electronic equipment, but if it's automatic, that's ok.
spludbirkoff, normal toggle household switches have an in and an out for the hot side of the wiring, as all they need to do is interrupt it. For a POWERED device though, you need it connected to line and neutral (or line+line in the case of 240V service), plus the output to the line that would run off to the light.
Shapeshifterfor example, sabbath elevator:
spludI'm guessing someone said "WTF do you mean I have to leave my food to spoil every Sunday?"
ZeroWalkerdamn stm32 and the serial thingy;(
birkoffsplud i see well I actually have 3 lines, 2 the same
spludbirkoff, I should note that I didn't check your diagram, but the WIFI module needs power from somewhere.
ThePendulumsplud: there was this incredibly loud beep going through town twice last week, someone mentioned it might be from the cooling systems of the supermarket they're remodelling here; I guess that was its sabbath mode going haywire then
splud2 are NOT the same.
Elyx0Omg the elevator video is awesome
spludone would literally be "L-in" and another "L-out"
birkoffL = live ?
spludor Line. Or Hot.
ThePendulumventhe1650: why not buy a dedicated module for it?
spludin US wiring, have white =neutral, black=hot/line
birkoffi have EU wiring
spludThere's lots of bodges out there, but a typical switch box would have two wire sets coming into it: the supply (stuff that is energized) and the load (wires that run off to your light).
birkoffone brown and two brown-black
birkoffwhat do I have currently connected than ?
spludin US, neutral (white) would be wirenutted between the supply and load, and the hot supply would run into one terminal on switch, and hot load would be wired to the other terminal on the switch.
mitmfi can get bitcoin for free?
spludis the brown wire a continuous run coming in and exiting the box?
splud(no wirenut or connection to anything)?
birkoffwhat is the 0 line ?
mitmfmy room is not cold because i turn on iron for 2 hours. 8)
spludmitmf, my office space is cold because it's in a barn and I don't have heat.
birkoffsplud i've been told the brown wire is whats called L
birkoffthat is 'phase' or power input
spludbrown is usually L, but if you have 240, both your wires are live (which would be why the other is brown+black)
mitmfsplud: sleep with dog, cat, horse, then they will save your life.
birkoffits kind of hard to tell
birkoffthere are many stuuf there, her's a pic hold on
spludbirkoff, please answer - is the "one" brown wire just a continuous run in and out of the box (i.e appears to come in with one brown+black, and go out with the other brown+black) ?
spludIf so, then your wiriung appears to have been done by pulling the wiring through wall or conduit and bringing a sufficient loop into the switch box, removing outer insulation and cutting just the brown+black wire to connect it to the switch. Entirely valid. You'd just need to also cut the brown (making it "2" wires), strip ends and wire nut a pigtail to it - a third wire running to the N connection on your wifi switch.
mitmfdon’t lament my death bye :|
spludAll done with that AC circuit switched off at the breaker panel, ideally with a lockout.
mitmfi never get $1 from this channel. great 8)
spludI've never received money from IRC either. Wouldn't expect to. I've given my two cents many times though. Dunno who collects that or what they spend it on.
birkoffsplud do you see it?
spludbirkoff, from that pic, it looks like the insulation on one of your brown+black wires is nicked
birkoffyeah I got it too
n2Okay, you guys have gotta help
n2The thing, on a drill
n2that you rotate to fasten / loosen the bit
n2what's that called?
n2It's not the collar...
spludthe BLUE wire back there is what I'd expect for the second line in euro wiring.
ThePendulumn2: argh I recently googled this
ThePendulumlike, I knew what it was called and googled it
birkoffi think it's fine though
ThePendulumlet me dive into my history
ThePendulumn2: chuck?
spludBut, I'm not in euro so can't really speak to household wiring standards there,
n2ThePendulum, THANKS!!!!
spludLooks a lot like you have one of those inline terminal block things in the wall - I'd pay really close attention to what that has running to and from it.
birkoffwhat doews second line mean splud
birkoffi'm told that I need to pull a wire from my fluoroscent
birkoffno idea how is that done though
spludus household wiring is "L to N" - 120V is "240 split phase" - the 240 here is like the 240 where you are (but different frequency), but the TV, Microwave, etc type plugs are 120V - one side of the 240 and a centre-tap "neutral".
spludIf you're not familar enough with the standards for wiring in your country, you might be best off checking with a local electrician.
spludI've done plenty of wiring on my own property, including a 240V 125A subpanel, but that's to US wiring standards.
spludThose blue wires stuffed at the back of your outlet box are significant to this wiring job, but it looks like there's more than one circuit running through there. I'd look for whatever wires are exiting the box to the light you're looking to switch.
weyland|yutanisplud, what are driving with 125A subpanel?
spludmy barn workshop.
weyland|yutanisplud, whats inside? a 63hp machine?
spludRan 2/0 gauge wire for the supply from the main panel.
birkoffim really confused now
splud125A subpanel is an entire breaker panel similar to what is on the main structure. Multiple breakers - several 20A circuits for office space, breakers for lighting, utility use, compressor, saws, dust collection and air filtering, etc.
splud(sum total of all installed breakers is > 125A, but not everything is run at the same time).
birkoffcan I use a multimeter to check the wires ?
birkoffi'm afraid of sparks and getting electrecuted
spludbirkoff, find someone familiar with your local wiring - if you can't identify all the wires associated with the circuit you're switching, you shouldn't use an arbitrary one (then if breaker thrown, your wifi switch could be partially live)
birkoffno one is familiar with it
spludYou'd only be able to check if you punctured the insulation.
birkoffat least not better than I
spludReally, nobody?
birkoffthey require checking
weyland|yutanisplud, how long a distance from panel to panel?
spludbeen a while, but IIRC, about 150 feet.
birkoffhow does this switch work ??
spludvertical and horizontal. All in conduit in a trench I dug deeper than 3 feet.
splud"they require checking" - as in you don't want to talk to an electrician because there would need to be a proper inspection of the work and more $?
spludSome of that inspection stuff has to do with safety, both for exposed live wiring and the potential for FIRE.
Curlyearshiegh hough
birkoffi already replaced all the light & boiler switches in the house
spludweyland|yutani, if you're wondering about the use of 2/0, yes, 1/0 would have sufficed, but I wanted minimal Vdrop.
weyland|yutanisplud, i just calculated its 1.1%
spludbirkoff, on the down-low.
spludweyland|yutani, Copper was costly enough when I did it, but I'm not a big fan of needing to re-do something, and Vdrop = lost money.
weyland|yutanisplud, yea and it has plenty of wiggle room for later
spludMoney I'm paying for power that isn't doing work.
spludI don't expect to need to expand the service size - even the main service is only 240V/200A.
spludMore likely to bring in a second service drop for an electric vehicle.
weyland|yutanisplud, that almost always needs a second service drop
weyland|yutanisplud, fast loading stations for E cars draw lots of power
spludWell, plan for the Tesla is to avoid charging it at home as much as possible.
spludBut still to install a charger, though possibly not rapid one.
weyland|yutanisplud, arent they all fast charging?
spludIf we put the main service on e-vehicle rate, the KWH pricing goes down, but I believe it kicks us into TOU. OTOH, the utility company is shifting to TOU anyway.
spludI'm still a petrol guy. My wife has the long commute where a Tesla is the ONLY electric vehicle option to cover the daily distance without wondering if you'll get stuck because you couldn't charge during the day.
spludSo, investigating the power options hasn't been my priority. She's still not purchased the car.
spludYea, first world problems.
phinxyWhen making a DIY antenna, Why is shielded cable (coax) used between the antenna and radio? Could it not just be another unshielded wire?
spludThat would be part of your antenna.
spludas in, factored into the wavelength calculation.
phinxyThe radio is an cell phone, it tells me to connect a headphone which acts as the antenna. Is my guess on what wire is used as good as yours?
phinxyProbably not ground at least. either R or L channel.
spludI expect the google could be enlightening.
Curlyearsphinxy: so the cell phone doesn't get service unless there is a headphone plugged in?
spludooh, look:
spluder, perhaps that instructable isn't the one to use though.
Curlyearsso, phinxy: how do you get service if you don't have a headphone plugged in?
phinxyCurlyears: gprs is on another band
phinxyidk what frequency FM radio is but its a lot longer waves
Curlyearsphinxy: boradcast FM is 88 to 108NHz
phinxyBy comparing FM and AM i must say FM seems superior
weyland|yutaniphinxy, there are today also digital radio standards
Curlyearsphinxy: of course it is. 1) it isn't senesitive to variations in signal strngth, and 2) at the much higher frequency carrier, the audi bgandwidth is much broader, allowing superior audio quality to be conveyerd
Curlyearsdigital radio is a whole other ball of wax
weyland|yutaniCurlyears, well i dont like it because it drops on and drops out very often in car use
spludIsn't digital FM ("HD radio") still transmitted close to the same frequency as the station license?
splud(versus digital radio services like Sirius which are COMPLETELY different)
weyland|yutanisplud, im talking DAB+ for example
birkoffsplud so what should I be doin eventually ?
birkoffbtw do I have a 0 line if you can tell from the picture?
Curlyearsweyland|yutani: yeah, it doesn't work so well for mobile use. at 88-108MHz, FM is pretty much a line-of-site service. When you're moving in a vehhicle, you move in and out of LOS frequentluy. Especially if you are in a fringe reception area, that can devastate the signal
weyland|yutaniCurlyears, it is it drops out very frequently which is very annoying
birkoffN is the black-red,
birkoffLin is the brown
birkoffbut what is for Lout ?
Curlyearsbirkoff: you on 240VAC?
Curlyearsbirkoff: I am in USA, most residential wiring here is 120VAC, so L and N are all we need
KartikayHey guys I have some doubt in the working of a transistor, can anyone please clarify it?
CurlyearsI wonder if one could legally wire a residence in the USA to European (240VAC) standards?
SpeedEvil220V/60hz is in general going to work for all appliances.
Curlyearskartikay: how about you tell us what you think you understand, and we'll offer advice and necessary corerections
KartikayCurlyears: Ok, sure
CurlyearsSpeedEvil: I was thinking more in terms of purchasing appliances rated at 240VAC
birkoffI think its what we need here
SpeedEvilCheck that they can't work fine at 120. Flex power supplies are an increasing thing
birkoffbut this WIFI switch maybe needs a 0
birkoffsonoff needs an extra wire from the appliance itself
birkoffmy current switch only takes 2 lines
birkoffthis is the wifi switch:
Curlyearsbirkoff: you DO understand that the switch is in series with the hot leg, not across the line?
birkoffim not sure what that means
KartikayHere is my current understanding of how a transistor works: Let's take a pnp transistor in common base configuration as an example. Positive charge carriers are first injected into the base by the emmitter. Some of them get recombined in the base with the electrons and the rest move on to the Collector. The ratio of Ic/Ie is called alpha and it sho
Kartikayws how much % of the current got recombined. Its value lies around 0.95 showing that about 5% of the current got recombined
Kartikayis this correct upto here?
Curlyearsbirkoff: OK...if I u nderstand what I am seeing, you have a remoter WIFI enabled light switch there. So, thwe N and the L(in) line provide power. The K(out) line provides the switched AC to the desired load
birkoffie the light?
Curlyearsthe emitter is carrying the combined current of the base and collector elements.
Curlyearsin this case, yes, the light
KartikayCurlyears: yes, i understand that
CurlyearsKartikay: OK. That part is good. You don't really need to be thinking about holes and electrons (positive and negative charge carriers) to use a transistor, though it CAN help.
birkoffwhat is the emitter?
Kartikayok .. so now my doubt is the following. The above explanation showed that the base current depends on the emmitter current. However when we use a transistor, we make it so that a small base current can control a large emitter current.
KartikayThe equations are the same in both cases (Ic=beta*Ib) but I have some trouble in understanding this interchange of cause and effect
Curlyearsbirkoff: a BJT (transistor) is a "sandwich" of P type and N type semiconductive material. A PNP type has a P type emitter, and N type base, and a P type collector.
Curlyearsthe base current "modulates" the emitter-collector current. A small base current can control a LARGE emitter-collector current.
KartikayYes thats what .... I cannot understand how they got to this statement from the initial explanation
Curlyearstransistors can be operated in linear or saturation mode. In linear mode, they behave as amplifiers. In saturation mode, they behave as switches
birkoffyou were writing that to Kartikay
KartikayCurlyears: can you please, please explain this from the beginning > "the base current "modulates" the emitter-collector current" ... I want to understand how a transistor achieves this effect
CurlyearsKartikay: Now you're starting the get down into the solid state physics of the transistor. WHY it works is a complex subject. You don't ned to know how they derived the relationships, you only need to know what t hey relationships are, and how to manipulate them.
KartikayCurlyears: No i seriously need to know why it works otherise for my whole life I will not understand transistors :/
KartikayAny pointers about what and from where should I learn how a transistor woks?
archivistKartikay, too large a subject for IRC, textbook
Curlyearsin a Bipolar Junction Transistor (BJT), theere is a subtle but powerful interaction between base current and collector current. I can't go into the solid srtate physics of iot (partilly because I don't remember enough odf the technical details to adequately explain it)
Kartikayarchivist: There is no simple/moderately complex explanation for that?
KartikayI dont care
Kartikayeven if it takes me years
KartikayI have to understand how this workd
Curlyearsassuming you can handle a power point file:
birkoffwhere do I copy the lines from the current switch to this wifi switch ? you may happen to know Curlyears
KartikayCurlyears: let me see :)
Curlyearsbirkoff: "copy the lines?" I don't quite grasp what you're asking me
birkoffthe two lines that are currently corrected to my current switch
birkoffwhere do I put them in my new wifi switch ?
birkoffit would be Nin & Lin ?
birkoffor Nin & Lout ?
password2wtf is wrong with argon prices?
CurlyearsL(in) and L(out). And you need to find a conductor connected to N to connect it to the N(in)
password2or argon bottle rental
Curlyearspassword2: could you be a little less cryptic?
password2here you pay to refill the bottle and pay rent monthly for the bottle
CurlyearsKartikay: is it letting you download the PPT presentation? It won't allow me to, it says "This presentation in not available for download" when I try
password2like $100 for refil and $40 a month for having the bottle
KartikayCurlyears: yup same here :/ ...
Kartikayi'll search for video lectures on this topic
Kartikayanyway thanks for your help
password2Curlyears, is it like that there too?
CurlyearsI have a feeling this won't meet your needs, but give it a look, Kartikay
archivisthe left
Curlyearssearch for "Bipolar Junction Transistors"
Curlyearspassword2: I have never attempted to purchase argon, so I don't honestly knnow. But what is your objection to the system as it is?
password2the rent part
password2having to shell out $30 per month of having a bottle , regardless if you use it
password2makes it impossible for a hobbyist to use
Curlyearspressure vessles are costly items, it is no surprise they want you to pay to use one. I assure you, you would NOT like the price you'd be asked to pay to purchase one
password2well you pay for a new bottle too
password2and you pay again for refilling
Curlyearspassword: what do you mean?
archivistyou can get one time throw away bottles of co2/argon mix no rent on them
password2Curlyears, what is not clear?
Curlyearsof course you pay for refilling. You are purchsing a gas. You pay for the gas when they load it into the pressure vessle. (bottlle or tank)
password2well my issue is you pay for refil , new and rent
password2what makes argon bottles so special?
Curlyearspassword2: not all at the same time.
password2here it seems its all at the same time
password2atleast I know the refill and rental is at the same time
Curlyearspassword2: I don't know. Maybe argon requires a special construction, or speacial materials. I am not a metallugist, I can't comment on that issue
password2its the only bottle I've seen here where you pay a monthly rent on it
Curlyearsof course. The rental is a fee that is separate from the gas itself,. It is for use (your temporary possession) of the expennsive pressure vessle. Then you pay for them to load it with argon. I don't saee how you fail to understand this.
password2not a once off rental fee
password2if i get a bottle
password2never even break the seal , and have it for a year , then I'll shell out $500 just for it to gather dust
password2its not a once off fee
password2it repeats every month
password2you cant own a bottle it seems
password2other bottles you pay a deposit once off upon acquiring said bottle
password2that I'm fine with
password2but a monthly fee on the fact that you have a bottle full of a gas? thats madness
password2not to refill it monthly
password2not to swap it monthly
password2do you guys also pay rent on bottle?
password2i mean monthly rent
archivistpassword2, things changed a few years ago due to bottles disappearing for years in peoples garages, safety
password2other gas bottles here have a deposit
password2ie , if you dont return a bottle upon refil , you pay a deposit to get a bottle
password2argon has deposit too and rent
password2maybe I'm just too poor for argon
CurlyearsI can't find any explanation for this, password2. Argon is typically stored at 5000PSIG. I am not cure how this comparws to other gasses.
archivistpassword2, small user get
password2archivist, have not seen that type
password2maybe it is avail here , maybe not
Curlyearsbirkoff Yes, because those two wires convey only one side of tghe power circuit, from the lamp, and back to the lamp, with the switch at this end.
CurlyearsI would say, off hand, that you need to consult with an electrician in your area to find out how to resolve this issue.
birkoff no i think ur mistaken
birkoffthey are live power
birkofffrom the power source to the lamp and back
birkoffmy appartment rental is gonna end in 2 months
Curlyearsbirkoff: The switch sites electrically in series with the lamp. One side of the AC line (one L) goes to the lamp directly. The other side goes first to the switch, and from there to the lamp
Curlyearsgood riddance. What a fucking moron
birkoffi got disconnected
MrCrackPotBuildeif you were to do a huge RGB led cube, say 213 LED's height 45 width 45 length could you just use a 256 bit shift register ???
FauxOr buy those individually addressable led light strips.
password245cm or inch?
MrCrackPotBuildeeach 1cm apart
password2wait , 45x45x45 leds?
MrCrackPotBuildeso it should be around 7' high and 1,5' wide
password2thats an odd cube
MrCrackPotBuildedancing lady :D
miss0runless its arranged in an odd spacing, not realy a cube at all :)
MrCrackPotBuildemore rectoid
password2you can adress your 431325 leds anyway you wish
MrCrackPotBuildeeither way its 413325 leds
MrCrackPotBuildewell each collumn would be 213 so if i had a 256 bit shift register should be able to have one for each cathode
MrCrackPotBuildebut would it still work i use a standard 8x8x8 but upscale
spludre: bottle rent. There's also the matter of re-certification.
password2you might need quite a few shift registers
MrCrackPotBuildeother wise i will need around 5760 74hc595
password2even just driving 45x45 leds can be a pain
splud"5 gallon" propane tanks are common for BBQ use here in USA. You can either buy an empty one, or do an exchange (or buy a full one, which is the starting from nothing exchange process).
password2splud sure
password2i dont know if I'm getting my point across
spludWhen a bottle you own starts to get old, rather than go through certification, you just go out and do an exchange.
MrCrackPotBuildei built the 8x8x8 it was fun but now i got it in my head that i want a lady dancing to music in the corner of my room
spludThough I've been burned on that - I have a full tank with a bad seal.
password2MrCrackPotBuilde, you can try digital leds?
spludSo, need to carefully check replacement tanks...
MrCrackPotBuildethey wont look as nice
password2they look nice
MrCrackPotBuildei would have thought if i look at it from certain angles it will be distorted
password2you get them in 5mm led form factor
MrCrackPotBuildedo you have a link ??
password2also is this rgb or not?
password2MrCrackPotBuilde, nope
password2look on aliexpress
password2theres a lot of different ones
MrCrackPotBuildehence why im looking for larger shift registers
MrCrackPotBuildebecause the amount i need if too much
password2if you can afford it , the apa106 is nice if you have a lot of leds
birkoffis it dangerous to test ac voltage with multimeter probes ?
password2dangerous if you ask that wuestion
MrCrackPotBuildebecause of the amps
MrCrackPotBuildeand that little thing isnt designed for such high current
birkoffwhen I connect my probes to the phase and 0 - no problem
birkoffbut I think one time I connected one of the probes to the ground - spark/noise
birkoff(on an outlet)
CurlyearsMrCrackPotBuilde: you'd have to fabricate your own 256 bit shift register from 16 16 bit shift registers.
MrCrackPotBuildewhat about 32bit
MrCrackPotBuildei saw some of those
MrCrackPotBuildeif i can save a few hundred i will haha
Curlyearsif you can find 32 bit shift register, then you can sdo it with 8 chips
MrCrackPotBuildehow on earth would i get all of them on just 8 chips
CurlyearsMrCrackPotBuilde: if they're 32 bits wide, what is 32 * 8?
MrCrackPotBuildeslaps himself with a wet fish
MrCrackPotBuildenoob moment
MrCrackPotBuildethat would still be 1440 chips
CurlyearsMrCrackPotBuilde: p erhaps now you are beginning to see why noone has produced such a project, eh? ;D ;D
MrCrackPotBuildeoh they have
MrCrackPotBuildemuch bigger
MrCrackPotBuildewith three ladies
MrCrackPotBuildei just one
MrCrackPotBuildeim not greedy
CurlyearsMrCrackPotBuilde: in 3D? Do you have links?
birkoffmy mm has 750 ACV option
MrCrackPotBuildei do one sec
MrCrackPotBuildethe song so funny
MrCrackPotBuildeeven funnier when you understand
CurlyearsMrCrackPotBuilde: *ugh*
CurlyearsI HATE the "music," and I found the display distressing
MrCrackPotBuildehaha but point being it has been done
Curlyearspoint taken. Next question: WHY?
MrCrackPotBuildei really cant see someone using 5000 odd shift registers
MrCrackPotBuildewhy not
MrCrackPotBuildefun project
MrCrackPotBuildetests my knowledge and pushes my ability also in patience when i solder those 400000 something leds
MrCrackPotBuildeand minus the dancing lady i have a few ideas of trying to connect this to a raspberry pi and my home automation system to give it a 3d look
Curlyearssounds like a monumental waste of resources and energy
synx508There are some nice NXP shift registers, 12 bit with open drain outputs, designed for LEDs
Crackiled matrix? just buy them
MrCrackPotBuildewheres the fun in just buying it
Crackiat least make a robot to place the leds and solder them
MrCrackPotBuildeim going to use my 3d printer
MrCrackPotBuildebut i can only solder 35 LEDs at a time and only one cathode
spludThat must be one hella soldering tip you have.
spludOf course, if you had a reflow oven...
MrCrackPotBuildestandard soldering iron just attached to the 3d printer instead of the 3d tip
MrCrackPotBuildethen solder is fed through
MrCrackPotBuildetip held on for 5 secs solder then 1 sec and move
garylabronzwild, id like to see a video of this
Dempis 2000 lumen bright enough for a room LED ceiling light? (compared to a 20w fluorescent bulb)
weyland|yutanidemp 1500 lumen is rougly a 100W light bulb
ketasi read hemp
weyland|yutaniDemp, if its enough depends of how big your room is
weyland|yutaniDemp, and whats inside
ketas2000lm seems bright
ketaswas it like 200w bulb?
ketasACTION checks
ketasof course there's cri
tawrDemp: a 20w ccfl is around 800lumen
tawrso 2000 lumen is 2.5x brighter
Demp4x5 meters, a regular bedroom
ketasthat's one bright light
weyland|yutaniDemp, thats bright enough
tawrdaylight bulbs seem brighter than warm white for the same light output
SculptorDemp, i'm using 3800 lumen light for a 4x3.6 room
ketas2000lm was 125w?
Demp(trying to figure out if this is bright enough )
spludheh, obviously metres, but first thinking, "damn, and I thought my cubicle was small"
MrCrackPotBuildeshould be enough with 800 lm
ketaswell you can also use 10000lm but meh
weyland|yutaniACTION installs 6000 lumen/m led stripes in spluds cubicle..."praise the sun!"
ketasi would want to dim those
tawrwe just told you
tawryour current light is probably 600-800l or so
tawryou are putting 2000 in it's place
Dempyes, just giving some background for why I'm asking
Dempthanks for the answers
tawri hope that's a covered housing type fixture you're putting it in
tawrbecause you will see stars and be in pain if you look at the bulb directly
tawrat 2k lumens.
MrCrackPotBuildetheres a company called ezzolights they do some great led lights
ketasundiffused leds are painful
ketasthey are on streets here, and it sucks
SculptorDemp, i ran my 3800lm light from 10% to 100%
Dempthat's a reassuring statement when it comes to brightness :)
Sculptoreven at 10% it gives a lot of lights
ketasit's orders of more painful than undiffused sodium lights
MrCrackPotBuildedemp i used to work for ezzolights they do pretty much any led lighting you need
MrCrackPotBuildeindor or out
Sculptortawr, my 3800 light is a 60x60cm square. no bright spots
ketasSculptor: that
ketasthat's cute
ketasi have wondered about those
ketasseen many nicely diffused panels
ketashowever panels look too officey
Sculptorhere's the pic
spludhows work treating you jlf?
ketasSculptor: that's your install?
ketasthat looks quite weird
Sculptorit's a temp solution (cable for dimming)
ketaswell it's meant to be installed in ceiling
Sculptorwell you can as well install it under ceiling
Sculptorit floats 4.5cm below the ceiling
ketashelps with cooling
Sculptori can't install it in the concrete ceiling
spludsuspended, or does it really float?
ShapeshifterCould someone who does this sort of thing tell from this picture wether this crimping tool is worth 25 USD?
ketasi have fibreboard ceilings here
ketasthere would be bad cooling there
Sculptorit's suspended with 4 holders i made from pc case extension slot caps
ketasthose would make nice workspace lights maybe
ketasi think
Sculptorfor smaller rooms i use 60x30cm lights
ketaseven light output over large area
Sculptorfor larger 60x60cm
spludShapeshifter, it's a compound crimper. Though the lighting makes it look like the bit isn't a replaceable part, but rather part of the tool.
ketasSculptor: do you have any regular lights in rooms?
Shapeshiftersplud: better light on the end
spludIf it's not replaceable (say with different bits), I'd take a pass on it, unless you're going to do a lot of that one type of crimp, which I bet it'll do very well at.
ketasindeed leds offer much wider range of fixture shape
Shapeshiftersplud: thanks
theBearShapeshifter, seems to have a basic lever/ratchetey kinda double-hingey action, which seems to be the biggest difference between basic and 'real' crimpers and similar handle-squeezey tools, aside from that i find it hard to believe any crimpers are worth much more than 20 or 30 bucks... they're just like fancified pliers when it comes down to it, and yet branded/pro-grade ones for all kinds of things seem to start just under $100 and you can
theBearsure spend a lot more than that if you want to
spludis the steel strap affixing a replaceable bit to the handle AND acting as a pivot, or is it only a pivot?
ketasSculptor: what you had before leds?
ShapeshiftertheBear: true, there's also this beast, used for 50 supposed to cost 120 new.
theBearfor things like basic spade/bullet/car crimps and cat-blah kinda crimpers, i find it's pretty hard to break or even damage the business end, re: replacable die/bits like fancier ones
spludtwo coloured handle is a kinda nice touch when you think about it, as many crimps have a polarity (relative to where the fold is in the metal)
ketasSculptor: i know i would like classic shaped lights, except there are places where strips could come real handy
Sculptorketas, incadescent lightbulbs, or however you spell that
spludheh, modified Vice-Grip type tool for crimping
ketasSculptor: yea but in which kind of lights?
kludgeketas: in edison sockets
Sculptorah, chandeliers
Crackispacex is sending another dildo into orbit in around an hour
Sculptori remove those and installed new cables
Sculptorfor centralized lighting control
spludI like crimpers where they ratchet down to full compression before self-releasing the ratchet action.
Sculptorwell, i'm not 100% done yet
theBearShapeshifter, mmm, and that ain't exactly a high-tech one, as far as plier-ish squeezey handle tools go <grin> then once yer get into things like those hex pattern F connector coax (cable tv kinda areas I see em most) and similar specific-use kinda ones prices just get silly
ketasi'm also thinking about central light control
ketasbut i would use local ssr's
ShapeshiftertheBear: well, one can also shed out 235 bucks for this:
ketasSculptor: or you also do things like this?
Sculptormy setup is not finished yet
ketasi wouldn't install relays there because stupid clicks
Sculptori plan to use dimmable controllers on most lights
theBeari spose fer a basic-ish crimpey tool, without needing full double-hingey leverey magic involved, that vice-grip with crimp-shaped jaws like the ricardostatic link picture, makes sense in a lotta ways
Sculptoratm i'm using stock controllers shipped with the lights
ketaswhich controllers?
theBearerr, make that the 2nd last ricardostatic link
Sculptorac dc led drivers
ketasyea but how you switch those
ketasor dim
spludSculptor, you mean basic current limited supplies. probably no dimming action.
Sculptordimmable controller in the living room, and non-dimmable controllers in other rooms
ketashow would you control those
ketasi think ip
Sculptori will replace them with meanwell controllers
ketasbecause it's cheap
theBearmmm, that last one looks like a crimper i was gifted/inherited from a fancy toolbox-sponsored-by-employer a while back... effed if i know what yer supposed to stick in the hole, tho as i recall it worked pretty good for at least one something i needed to crimp that i don't normally deal with... certainly a very fancy feeling action to the whole close/crimp/release process :)
Sculptorand turn them on/off with ssrs
Sculptorketas, canbus
kludgeACTION is waiting for wood.
ketasSculptor: canbus to where?
theBearACTION calls in the chorus-line girls
spludtheBear, coloured holes are probably for "which colour crimp should I use for the wire/wires I have in my hand?"
Sculptoreverything on canbus
bart416_I found an excuse to design something with that AD electrometer opamp :D
Sculptorswitches, lights, etc
theBearmaybe that'll speed up kludge's proces
kludgetheBear: It's on a purolator truck in manitoba!
ketasSculptor: not whole home canbus?
theBearheh, everything was on canibus when i was a younger man <grin> now it's only some things
ketasi know i would be using mostly ethernet
Sculptorwhole home canbus
Sculptorethernet for lan
ketasmaybe not network into every device but network into one room at least
theBearsplud, nah, i talking about that magic full-unopenable-ring with 4 jaws in the center kinda ones
Sculptorethernet requires more cables and hubs/switches
ketasin single room i would be using just dc control lines
theBearkludge, heh, it seems we get our wood via very different approaches indeed
ketaswell indeed i wouldn't want to install 128 port switch
theBearheh, whole home canbus ? i believe that's called a dutch-oven <grin>
ketasbut if you use low voltage dc lines in room, you can keep network port count to manageable range
ketasthere are also options to use small managed switches or devices with more than one ethernet port
ketasto keep things sane
ketasi wonder if i could or should replace some in-room control lines with some bus (like as opposed to just plain dc 0/1 io for relay/ssr and light switch)
drac_boyjust had to ask but is it possible to trace a damaged voltage regulator to a very dirty overvoltaged wall wart? (the kind that outputs 14v even although the label says 11v)
kludgedrac_boy: well, a high input voltage will make a linear regulator run hot, and will fail faster.
SpeedEvildrac_boy: why do you think it's regulted?
ketasdrac_boy: did you overvoltage the regulator?
SpeedEvil14V unloaded out for 11V nominal load would be about right
ketas11v doesn't seem much different from 14v
ketasespecially unloaded
drac_boyketas it does if you only have 12 max value :)
ketaswell, that's bad then
ketasif it's 12v max
ketasinstead of finding psu with voltage in middle of working range
SpeedEvildrac_boy: was this a supply that came with a device?
SpeedEvilIf it was, it's likely it always was 14V unloaded
theBearhmm, maybe 'cos that Warren G character from way back in the land of the 90s was invovled ? he seemed very fond of regulating things..
Sculptorketas, in kitchen i plan to use one 12v or 24v strong power supply to power multiple led strip workarea lights, and one goes to the bathroom mirror as well
Sculptorketas, controlled with triacs
theBearheh, it feels like the 90s here suddenly, i can almost smell the cheese on the radio
SculptorST's snubberless series
ketasSculptor: how you would get from canbus to that?
SpeedEvilACTION thinks of when he hears cheese.
Sculptorone mcu
kludgetheBear: Sorry, my hair isn't up to the nineties yet.
CasperDoes anyone know if they made something that allow the use of two nic and combine the speed of SINGLE CONNECTION, SINGLE PC, that is not p2p connection? (read: bonding will NOT work)
ketasCasper: hmm?
Casperketas: hmm!
ketasbond what
ShapeshifterSo I'm still stuck on how to distribute the power to 7*9 short led strips. Instead of going in with a bucket full of WAGO splitters (, couldn't I just do it extremely simple by just using a... screw for electrical things, 2 for each hexagon (V+ and GND), and then from each of the 9 strips I just stack the cables on using these
Shapeshifterthings? and add a nut on top to screw them on tight and that's it?
Shapeshifterwould be much cheaper and simpler.
ketasSculptor: where will the canbus go to ip?
ShapeshifterBut I don't know what kinda screw that would be. Probably can't use just any old screw.
kludgeCasper: no. Because that would _be_ bonding.
Casperbonding mode 1-6 can't accelerate a single connection, but would, depending on the mode, maybe accelerate multiple ones, or not (kinda random). mode 0 is p2p and can't work with switch in between, and need dedicated nic for that link
kludgeCasper: you can have two interfaces with different ip addresses on the PC though and split the traffic between them.
ShapeshifterLike, a copper screw maybe.
ketasthere are multiple ways to load-share in software too
Casperkludge: I want to accelerate nfs
kludgeMode 0 is what you want, and it works just fine with a switch that supports bonding.
kludgeCasper: You're probably more limited by latency than bandwidth anyway, them.
kludgeCasper: nfs is horrible about latency. Disable encryption and increase the number of available threads.
ketasmake two tunnels or something and bond those
ketasif it's indeed bw issue
ketasand there is no other ways
Caspermode0 require p2p connection, and won't work with a switch in between. you are thinking about mode 4 = 801.3ad, which do not accelerate single connection
theBearkludge, aww c'mon maaaaan, just cos i haven't been to a barber or really let anyone else get involved with maintaining the areas of hair i need nice and short, for speed... naturally ! since the 90s, doesn't mean i didn't manage to not only integrate, but also invented the very term for ear-moustaches (ear-moustaches that is, no need for anything abstract here,) and have been enjoying looking like my head comes from tomorrow, but exists in today
theBearever since ! sidenotes include that the frontman/main singer from aqua sported them for at least a couple albums around the cartoon-superheros and self-titled era, but also that Mr T pretty much invented them, and has been wearing them loud and proud almost consistantly for a period longer than i been alive !
ketashairy theBear
ketasit's the bear!
kludgetheBear: I am still getting along with seventies hair and it's been fine.
Casperketas: and what you mean exactly with two tunel?
ketasSculptor: in my case, i would put small sbc into room and run dc lines to ssr and switch, maybe 1w to temp sensors
Sculptorketas, sbc
Sculptorone sbc in the 19" rack
Sculptornot critical for operation
Sculptoronly for visualization and remote control
ketasmy sbcs would operate the whole thing
kludgetheBear: As far as Mr. T, he was not original. He got his name from Mr. Coffee and made only one minor change. It's so derivative.
Sculptormcu is more reliable than a sbc
kora9Hey :-)
Sculptorlol, what a nickname
ketasconsidering how little hw failures i've had over decades, i don't think it would be that bad
ketasneed replacement parts anyway
Casperketas: ?
theBearkludge, surely a name related conspiracy doesn't tarnish the merit of his ear-moustaches ? i mean, they got their own unproper-noun, and it's not like that just happens magically, surely the fact that someone bothered to name them means they can at least stand up on their own !
ketasSculptor: led drivers, ssrs, psus, all are points of failures, to be honest
kora9I have a surround receiver that accepts optical spdif. When using it, during times of silence, it seems to "standby" the audio signal. It takes a 1.5-2 seconds from audio to the amplifier being activated. What is this caused by? There are many different parts involved here and I'm not sure which introduces this latency
theBearmmmm, i suppose technically that someone IS me, and as hard and wide as i try, both the ear-moustaches, and the name, aren't catching on nearly as quickly as I had initially predicted
ketasSculptor: i would also invest in overvoltage protection since amount of fine electronics distributed everywhere would be fucking high
ThePendulumhmm trying to have some 1.5mm acrylic cut in NL to make my own dividers for my new cabinets, doesn't seem to be a popular option though, you get 1mm, 2mm, but 1.5mm only at a few places and they're either very expensive or they don't cut that small
SpeedEvilThePendulum: what size of dividers?
spludkora9, - its not a _signal_ latency (like being out of sync with picture or other audio), it sounds like the amp itself is powered down and takes that long to come back up. I'd look for manufacturer info on how to adjust how long with no apparent input signal before it goes standby.
SpeedEvilBuying a small bandsaw can be quite inexpensive.
ketasCasper: any kind of tunnels, then bond those
ThePendulum135×50mm iirc, the shop I looked at that actually had 1.5mm did a minimum of 200×100mm I think
kludgetheBear: it beats the "soul patch" anyway.
ThePendulumI could use dad's tool but I figured I'd see if they can cut it for me for a nice finish
spludThePendulum, probably more expensive because it's not a popular size.
Casperketas: do you have any link to that on some that would increase the speed of single connection?
spludSo places buy and stock it, then don't go through it much.
SpeedEvil for example
bobo1on1kora9: that's probably a feature of your amplifier
kora9splud: yeah it's not a signal latency. When audio does come through its in sync. The entire amp doesn't go into standby, it just takes that long for it to react to a signal on the optical spdif (the amp can't know the encoding before hand)
SpeedEvilThey are available much cheaper second hand.
spludThePendulum, can you get them to make your small pieces and include the rest of the sheet in that minimum?
spludWould make sense to just get the stock and head to your local makerspace.
kora9splud: you can see it switch from stereo to say DTS or DD
SpeedEvilActually, at 1.5mm, score+snap will work fine
kora9Splud: My initial thought is that it's the controller that detects and handles this decoding that is taking time
SpeedEvilCleanup with a block of wood and sandpaper on the block
spludThat's such a cute little benchtop bandsaw there,
ShapeshifterCould I use something like this? 1 pin for the source, then use the remaining 5 pins to drive 9 strips (the longest alone, the others two strips per screw)?
Shapeshifterthere's nothing in the spec about amperage
kora9splud: since the amp and all that stuff is analogue and rarely, i think?, has these types of latencies
theBearkora9, splud, it may also be that the amp is switching between different spdif/digital modes, perhaps due to a default setting when there is no data at all on the spdif cable, or perhaps due to the thing sending the spdif to the amp switching between modes for it's own reasons (for example changing from stereo to surround when moving from music to movie playback) .. might give yer a couple extra places to look/check, also if it is a digital
theBearformat/mode-switch, you can usually see by observing the amp display while it happens
ThePendulumsplud: I guess I could ask if the local hackerspace has a lasercutter I could use for a fee, although I don't know how to use one... lol
ketasCasper: hmm
ThePendulumhmm I should check what dad has in the shed
ThePendulumhaven't been in there in years because it's just a wall of stuff
filadomecan having too low a voltage do damage
Principal8hi. I'm currently dissolving some potting material on a PCB i want to service. I'm using acetone and I see that the plastic on the electrolytic caps is also coming off. But do you think the cap itself can handle the acetone or will it seep inside the cap and wreck the electrolyte?
ThePendulumon what? a pacemaker, I suppose so :P
Casperfiladome: depending on the load, but yes, too low of a voltage can damage some loads
spludThePendulum, hopefully if your hackerspace has a laser, if it is a K40 type, the control board has been replaced. K40's come with a variety of generally crap control boards that interface with some truely lame software.
theBearkludge, ahh, embracing change AND denouncing long ago passed fads (which unlike style, can never last forever) ... very good ! that's gotta be a step closer to you sporting some kind of new age hair, perhaps even hair fit for the 90s ;-)
filadomeCasper, what if current is limited
filadomefor example, i have an LED panel and it says 20A
filadomei'm not sure if it's 5v or 12v, should i try 5v first?
spludBut, if upgraded control board (mine has a SmoothieBoard in it now), if they have anything to send gcode to it, you should be able to bring almost any sort of CAD or vector file in and get it to work.
theBearcurrent limiting can only lower a voltage further, it ain't gonna help one that already too low
Casperfiladome: for example, a laptop will take a constant power, let's say 50W@19V=2.63A 50W@12V=4.16A, now you may be overstressing the regulator due to the almost double current
spludHow many of these dividers were you needing to make?
theBearalso 7v*20a is a HUGE power difference, you can probably use that fact to workout what is expected
filadomeCasper, i can set a current limit on my bench power supply
ThePendulumsplud: lol ideally 25, I think I might just see if I can find a Bulgarian instead who can ship it to me for cheaper than the store that sells them can
kludgetheBear: I miss Wendy O. Williams.
splud20A @ 5V, Heh.
ThePendulumwhich is in Bulgaria apparently
ketasPrincipal8: without checking the "endcap" material of cap, i would assume it would be dissolved by acetone...
Casperfiladome: again, yes... Which can be an issue on some audio amp too, the totem pole output bias circuit may malfunction and your output transistor may go both on at the same time, and magic smoke release
ketasPrincipal8: or be afraid of that
Caspersplud: what about 145W@1.5V :D
spludWhy do you need cut acrylic ones instead of the bog-stock ones that are usually sold for said parts drawers?
spludOr are your boxes not new, and spec is unknown?
kora9theBear: good point, it does switch to/from stereo when this occurs. It defaults to stereo (analog ins) when there is no digital input. There is no setting for this officially. Is this a software setting?
ThePendulumsplud: well any clear plastic will do I suppose, just don't want them to be chewy and milky
kora9theBear: i.e. have they coded it to behave this way or is it some hw component that's not fast enough
filadomeCasper, thanks for the info
theBearkora9, erm, i don't know what either end is, or which of them has any "software" to even think about setting
spludThePendulum, you know, 2mm would probably work fine if you had the plastics shop cut at a bevel.
ThePendulumI supposed that could work, not as ideal though
kludgeThePendulum: When I need weird dividers for such things, I cut them from wood veneer.
ThePendulumsince the plastic is slightly flexible I imagine that bevel makes it easier for it to push itself out
drac_boythebear yeah I agree its likely 100% hardware and 0% software for most audio things :)
bart416_<Principal8> hi. I'm currently dissolving some potting material on a PCB i want to service. I'm using acetone and I see that the plastic on the electrolytic caps is also coming off. But do you think the cap itself can handle the acetone or will it seep inside the cap and wreck the electrolyte? <-- The cap should be sufficiently sealed.
kludge2mm styrene you can cut at home with a hot razor blade.
bart416_BUT, if you are going to service a potted board it never hurts to just replace the electrolytic caps anyway
kora9theBear: I mean it's a surround receiver. It has controllers and software even if it's not exactly user accessible
drac_boyACTION is still trying to find any useable schematics for a simple analog-to-digital preamp on the other hand :-s
spludI usually end up removing some number of the stock dividers (or not breaking them off of their tabs when accompanying the new storage box).
bart416_While you're in there it tends to cost less to replace them than to do it again at a later stage.
kludgebart416_: If you're having to service a potted board likely the electrolytics are all bad anyway.
spludenough larger quantity or larger items.
ThePendulumdo they make clear styrene?
theBearand re: if there was a conscious choice to have some gap in time/audio when switching modes, erm, there kinda has to be at least some period of no-audio, cos you can only send one format of audio thru a spdif/digital line at any given time, so ya know, that implies a changeover of at least a moment
kludgeThePendulum: they do, CD jewel cases are made from it.
bart416_kludge, depends.
filadomeanyone want to check my arduboy-clone PCB design?
ThePendulumI see
bart416_I've had a few where there was water ingress along the terminals under the potting compound.
kora9theBear: to rephrase my question: Is it a set timer somewhere in firmware code or a hw processor speed issue?
kludgebart416_: yuck!
ThePendulumkludge: ... I could just buy or salvage a bunch of those haha
bart416_People forget to use the correct wire shielding!
kludgeThePendulum: you could, it wouldn't be a bad thing. You could cut failed CD-Rs also. But I like wood veneer.
bart416_And greased rings on the wires that breach the box
Snert_bart416_: I pack any wires with monkey snot - silicone around all wire entrances and exits.
spludstyrene isn't a good laser material, FWIW.
bart416_That also works snert_ :)
ThePendulumkludge: I have nothing against wood in general but in my mind it looks a bit silly in clear plastic drawer
bart416_splud, huh?
ThePendulumoh well, I'll find something, thanks
bart416_polystyrene is super easy to cut with a laser cutter
spludI used to give CD jewel cases that had broken hinge tabs to my wife's grandfather, who'd use them for windows in dollhouses he built.
bart416_Gives nice clean cut.
kludgesplud: how did he cut them? Hot blade?
spludI don't know what he used for cutting. probably score and snap, honestly.
bart416_You get some charring at the edge, but it's easy to take off with a scalpel; just scrape it along the side.
spludcharring != nice clean cut
bart416_For PS, PC, and PET score and snap is easiests.
bart416_The charring is in the places where it's supported splud.
spludNot smooth and glueable for instance
bart416_If you could make it hover it'd be a perfectly clean cut.
ketasfor hard plastics, score and snap is surely good
ketasheck, score and snap works for wood too
kludgeIn one plane, yeah.
spludWhere I have acrylic stock larger than my laser bed, I score and snap close to the size I need.
theBearkora9, erm, i'd say you ain't gonna be able to change the time it takes to switch between modes, at least in this specific situation, but you may well be able to send it a steady digital stream from whatever your source is, regardless of their being any actual audio at any given time, and in that case MAYBE the switch time will be quicker when the source does "need" to switch surround/stereo modes for whatever reasons it may have, due to the amp
theBearalready watching and/or set to a mode according to what is on the spdif incoming vs detecting the start of a datastream, and perhaps even napping between checks when it ain't seeing anything
bart416_Score and snap even works for thin TPU films.
bart416_Though the snap there is a quick pull.
ThePendulumheck score and snap works for cotton too
ThePendulumhmm, maybe not
spludscore and snap works on yo mamma.
ketasThePendulum: it just snaps
bart416_It works really well on glass and ceramics
bart416_Wafers you got to be careful to align with the crystal direction, otherwise it ain't pretty, lol
spludI was thinking of growing some cotton in the garden this last year, but didn't. Should get on that next year.
ketasmy grandfather usually used knife to snap thin wood pieces
kora9theBear: Yeah it's possible. It seems though with optical spdif and dd/dts as though quiet (0dB) is interpreted as no signal
ketasindeed, you either use fine saw or just do that
ketasif you object is <10mm
theBearscore and snap is the only way to deal with any kinda plaster/rock boards, and like glass, with these yer gotta make sure to only score one nice neat line, or things to hell real quick
spludbart416_ - on non-tempered glass <g>
ketasyou can try to score tempered glass too
ketasfor real fun
kora9theBear: I was just hoping I could reduce the detection time by 2/3 as there are way faster processors available these days
theBearkora9, how are you sure that there is a signal currently, when there is no sound ?
password2where flea when you need to bother him
ketasfleas bother you
ketasyou scratch
bart416_splud, for tempered glass I got a few tricks up my sleeve xD
kora9theBear: because if I watch a movie and there is a quiet scene the signal dies
bart416_Granted, you need to do your scoring with a laser.
spludkora9, turn up the volume. Duh.
kludgekora9: why not disable the stupid idle mode completely?
password2anyone ever got anything from indiegogo?
bart416_password2, dunno
kora9splud: ha. Doesn't solve anything
bart416_But a lot of us pitched in some money for the FleaOhm.
password2yeah , I want to pitch too
bart416_You need to create a slice of structural defects within the material by focusing the laser with a really low DoF inside hte material.
password2but it asks for street adress
password2and I want it to go to postal
bart416_That creates a weak spot along which failure is induced before anything else.
theBearkora9, really ? that erm, sounds like something ain't working right at one end of the cable
bart416_Same method is used to dice wafers with a laser
kora9kludge: It's not an idle mode and you can't disable it. It seems to be switching between modes. It likely takes a bit before it knows what coding signal it is being sent
ketasbart416: after laser you use force the break it into pieces?
kludgekora9: You think so? You sure it's not just a power saving feature?
kora9theBear: Nah. I think it's just the nature of this
kora9kludge: yes because the receiver doesn't turn off
kludgekora9: Check the receiver manual, I bet it's got gating to hide noise problems and so forth.
kora9kludge: it just switches to/from the analog ins on the same preset and to/grom stereo
kora9kludge: already scoured the manual
kludgeWait, wait, it automatically switches without your doing anything just based on level?
zigggggyhey kludge!!!!!
kludgeACTION waves to zigggggy 
zigggggykludge you should watch this again!
zigggggyit is so funny!
kora9kludge: Yes. I think 0dB volume with optical spdif means no signal
theBearkora9, erm, i pretty darned sure that spdif clearly "specifies" the format it is sending up the cable, regardless of there being anything audible or not, so unless the nature of this is something at one end of the cable being defective, either by design or fault, it ain't the nature of anything
kora9kludge: it likely can't tell that apart from not having a signal to begin with
kludgekora9: Throw it out. That is totally misdesigned. Nothing should EVER behave that way. It's decided it's smarter than you are about what signal source you want.
kludgekora9: If you do not manually select the signal source but allow it to figure it out on the fly, something is wrong.
kora9theBear: sure, it defines the format, but it still takes time to decode based on what it is given that it supports many formats
kora9kludge: All receivers do this in some fashion
theBeardigital audio of any kind can just as easily represent (and if relevant to a given case, like a spdif link/cable, send) "silence" as it can ANY audio signal
zigggggyGigs! have you founnd an el taco replacement?
kludgekora9: I sure as hell hope not. You should have a rotary switch to select the input and when that input is selected nothing else is.
zigggggyi even told kludge the bad news
kora9kludge: not that simple
kludgekora9: it should be. If it's not, throw it away and get one that is.
theBearit doesn't have to decode anything, the source end of the cable/link specifically tells the receiving end what format the audio is in whenever ANY data is being sent up the cable, silence or not
spludthis isn't switching the source _INPUT_ connection, but the source signal _TYPE_
kora9Kludge: For every mode on an advanced receiver you can set both digital /and/ analog inputs
kludgekora9: The mode and the input setting should be independent on completely different controls also.
kora9kludge: advanced receivers have loads of ins/outs and having it selected like a simpler stereo amp would be strange
kora9kludge: I've never seen one surround receiver that does that. Ever.
kora9That's more something stereo amps do
kora9splud: exactly
kludgeBut I may have three different inputs that could have AC-3 and three different inputs that could have matrix surround.
kludgeI might want source three with decode format seven.
Crackispacex rocket going up now
mowciusCan anyone recommend a good dual voltage power supply? (12V and 5V) I've found the Meanwell RD-50A/RD-65A which would work but I've no experience with Meanwell PSUs
DoYouKnowif I generate a Weierstrass function in .wav format, that is very close to continuous up to the bandwidth limit, it will stay discontinuous if I set that BW*2 as my sample rate right?
DoYouKnow*very close to nondifferentiable
DoYouKnow*it will stay nondifferentiable
spludmowcius, are you looking for a PS to embed in a project, or a benchtop supply for experimenting?
kora9kludge: The way it works with most is that you have presets where you set an analog input a coax input and an optical input and it'll choose between them and it'll default to whatever its set for on the analog and for the digital it'll default to the format specified in the protocol which you can then override manually
kora9Cracki: yay
DoYouKnowhow do you deal with nondifferentiable equations in terms of maxwell?
spludMeanwell is a known quantity - if authentic. The specs should reflect what it produces.
mowciussplud: One for inside a project. It needs to be semi-enclosed though (similar to the Meanwell ones)
kludgekora9: that's horrible. The professional stuff isn't that way.
spludHow much 5V current do you need? Seems like 12V PS plus an external 5V regulator would be dead simple.
spludand cheaper.
theBearACTION maintains that the standard quoted simplistic freq's<=(1/2*samplerate) nyquist theory is stupid and far from reality
kora9kludge: not sure what you mean by professional stuff, but even Krell works this way and is $$$$
DoYouKnowtheBear: you're probably right. Do you think wavelet theory has a better approach?
theBearand unlike tho who tend to blindly repeat it, even if they haven't any clue as to why the statement exists to begin with, i can prove it
kora9kludge: stereo stuff or proaudio stuff that has loads of channels (that are not necessarily meant for surround) works differently
DoYouKnowtheBear: what do you recommend to understand it?
kludgekora9: I was thinking the theatrical systems which are made for surround.
theBearDoYouKnow, i just think that without a LOT more information attached, at best that little "formula" is very misleading
Crackiis this theory vs practice?
kora9kludge: the rotary input thing you describe is what integrated stereo amps tend to use because they have fewer inputs and no modes
mowciussplud, should only be about 1A but a self-contained, easily replaceable unit would be preferable to a secondary SMPS (or voltage regulator) like I have right now.
mowciussplud: The Meanwell ones only seemed to be £15-£20 when I looked though which seems very reasonable.
DoYouKnowtheBear: well, I'm working with audio in python. monaural audo format
tawrmakes sense mowcius there is tons out there. I believe Murata has what you're looking for. I'm assuming you want mains in?
kora9kludge: loads of THX certified stuff works this way too. The stuff used by cinemas usually have dedicated processors and don't use receiverw
kludgekora9: With the theatrical systems you have nested menus to select inputs and decode modes but the concept is the same.
kludgekora9: The whole idea of selecting an input based on level just seems like asking for trouble to me.
kora9kludge: what do you mean by 'theatrical system"
DoYouKnowtheBear: The program (I don't have it on-hand right now) does a sum to compute the weierstrass function to a precision on the order of the sample rate, then writes it to a wav file
theBearDoYouKnow, depends what yer trying to achieve/understand as a result i suppose, but the short version of why i say it is far from correct, is cos of what you see if you think/write/somehow-test what happens to several different waveforms if sampled at double their own frequency, and further what happens if they ever so slight lower than 1/2 sampling freq
kludgekora9: The many decoders that are sold to replace the ancient Dolby CP-200 and the like.
DoYouKnowtheBear: yeah, it probably has to be matched in the driver and in the file
mowciustawr: I've never heard of Murata. Maybe not really a thing/available in the UK? Yes I need mains in (230V)
kludgeBut I must go see if the IT people have destroyed my desktop computer yet. Back in a bit.
tawrmowcius: murata is the world leader in power supplies
theBearalso, i'll be honest, i haven't done a lot of low-level digital audio programming/work, and what i did was waaaaay back in the 90s, and i got no idea what a weierstrass function is, tho it does make me want a fancy hotdog
tawrthey make some of the smallest, most powerful powersupplies and regulators out there
kora9kludge: ah yeah but those are processors and so the preamp is separate. That's why. Receivers are integrated amps for pre/power and processor for lots of channels in one box
tawrmowcius: how small of a supply do you need?
DoYouKnowtheBear: it's a nondifferentiable function, similar to a square wave, but instead of it being nondifferentiable at every rise and fall, at nearly (not all, but nearly) every point it's nondifferentiable
kora9Hey tawr :)
tawrhey kora
kora9How is Halloween?
theBeartho if you are programming/messing about in dsp land, you will probably notice that my claims vs <=1/2samplefreq look very different if you examine them in various abstract digital ways, one example being the old FFT
DoYouKnowtheBear: that's just the bandwidth limit usually
kora9Cracki: Koreasat it seems :)
DoYouKnowone aspect of a complex problem
theBearDoYouKnow, hmmm, some kinda hi-tech idealised white-noise generator eh ?
password2cody's lab has some super cool videos
tawrkora9: trying to figure out if i'm going to do anything or not
DoYouKnowtheBear: white noise is actually differentiable
password2the Can you float a liquid on agas is so seriously awesome
tawrmy main cosplay / haloween costume pretty much fell apart 2 years ago and is held together with duct tape and last year was at the point it should be thrown away.
DoYouKnowtheBear: but it does present a high entropy/impedance
kora9tawr: Just get a crotchless priest outfit and open the door with a bottle of Laphroaig :D
DoYouKnowit's differentiable because of consecutive points can be sloping
filadomecan someone check if seeed fusion gerber viewer is working?
mowciustawr: Physical size is not a massive issue. I need maybe 3A or so at 12V and about 1A right now on 5V but may need a bit more in the future.
theBearDoYouKnow, differentiable from what, or err, how ? i mean, i tend to think in real/analog terms whenever possible in audio/signal related theory, cos it's how i learned everything, and it sure sounded like you were describing generating fairly "by-definition" white noise, only doing it in digital land, or err, not you so much, as the strassweiner hotdog guy
DoYouKnowtheBear: white noise is nondifferentiable, you're right. But you can write it using stochastic calculus so a derivative can be calculated
DoYouKnowthe weierstrass is different, it's an actual function
DoYouKnowbut now that you mention it, I'm again slightly confused
password2tawr you cosplay?
CrackiDoYouKnow, sounds like you're being baited
theBeari wasn't making a statement, i was literally asking what differentiable means
tawrpassword2: not really. it's just so much more than a haloween costume to be called that
DoYouKnowdifferentiable means a derivative exists at every point
tawrthe first 2-3 years i built it, i won every single competition i entered
password2yesterday i managed to put my chainmaille vest on for the firt time
DoYouKnowtheBear: weierstrass function isn't entirely noise. It may be noise, but it's different. It's more like harmonic noise
tawrit included welding!
theBearheh, and while we at it, i literally forgotten all my calculus to the point i can do nothing until i get around to reading or being given at least a 5 min refresher to remind me how the fuck the stupid looking uber-algebra nonsense works again
tawri built steel stilts. about 20lb each. i stand about 8'4 to the top of the helmet
password2oooh . welding on costume
tawrmy sword is literally a half sheet of plywood.
DoYouKnowtheBear: well, y[1]-y[0] / x[1]-x[0]
DoYouKnowdy / dx
DoYouKnowdoes that exist for all shifts of 1 and 0
password2eh , slap a piece of alutape on it and it will look alright
tawrwith steel tip. i would for the first 2-3 years put torch strikers as inserts into the steel tip, so when i drug it on the ground behind me, it sparked
tawrand it also made the steel scrapey sound on concrete
DoYouKnow1 and 0 are consecutive samples in this case
Cracki>dragging a phallus with emissions behind you
theBearhmm, it is very late, tho those variable[?] looking things on the first line there stir up some memories that go back to long before glancing at any calc formula i might need/stumble on meant nothing to me
theBearheh, who woulda thought something so simple, at 4am on a err, tuesday now i guess, would get me at least a good chunk of the way back to functioning in a calculuted kinda world
tawrcorrect Cracki
DoYouKnowhehe theBear
theBearCracki, it's either that or carrying it in a wheelbarrow in front of me, and i always get funny looks when i do that outdoors
DoYouKnowyou would think weierstrass would be nearly ideal for causing crosstalk
DoYouKnowwith good leakage characteristics
DoYouKnowit takes a long time to evaluate up to sample rate, though
DoYouKnowtook a couple hours (iirc)
DoYouKnowfor 10 seconds
DoYouKnowI have another function that's really good, but weierstrass is something different
DoYouKnowthe other function works for long times, pretty simply. It's the same one I experimented with to linearize gravity
DoYouKnowgoing to do a much better experiment once I get a better understanding
DoYouKnowmaybe with an accelerometer
theBeari like to think strassweiners are usually cooked by boiling, and usually served with some nice tangy fried onion bits and some of that classic yellow only-and-perfectly-suits-hotdogs mustard... which i suspect is perhaps the only example there will ever be of americans NOT fucking up some perfectly good food or dressing just cos they don't like to fit in with the rest of the civilised world, in every possible way, even when there's the opposite
theBearof no good reason to do so
stairmast0rwhat's a good type of connector to panel mount in a very small area?
stairmast0ri'm trying to put a 7-wire nand connector under the bottom cover of my 3DS XL
stairmast0rthere's very little vertical space to work with
mowciusstairmast0r: Maybe a set of pads and two threaded nuts/inserts to mount a pogo-pin type connector to?
mowciusI'm sure you can buy them as actual connectors but I can't think of a name for them.
stairmast0rmowcius: that's actually a really good idea, thanks :D
justJanneThis is more a question about measurement equipment, but I hope I can find an answer here. Back in my middle and high school, we had a measurement device, connected to a PC, that would allow connecting about 8 or so sensors, for voltage, amperage, or physical force, etc, and had a software connected to sample that data with over 100kHz, and plot the data. We used that a lot in class. Now, I’m almost out of uni, and started working with
justJanneelectronics, and I really would love to have something like this again, but I can’t find anything that doesn’t cost a 4-5 digit sum. Anyone got an idea what kind of datalogging equip that was?
synx508justJanne, probably a national instruments DAQ or similar
justJanneIt was similar, but not that. This was at a school in Germany, ca. 2010-2014
justJannenot as far as I can see
justJanneIt was astonishing because it could measure 8 sensors at once, with good frequency, was cheap, and easy enough that you just plugged sensors in and out with plugs that almost had the USB size and format
kmciajustJanne: you can build a lot of that out of arduino and other cheap "maker" stuff
kmciaif you need more ADCs, an analog mux chip or an external I2C/SPI ADC are options
justJanneyeah I know, and I have an arduino, but that’s exactly why I’d want this: I’m working with my arduino, and would love, if for debugging purposes, I could just log the output accurately, and then compare that with what I want it to be
kmciaso buy another arduino ;)
QantouriscWell this is an intresting problem: in a differential amplifier (in a differential setup) doesn't the output resistance affect the results ?
QantouriscWhich one could try to correct by a small resistor on the other end ?
kmciaQantourisc: the output resistance should be very low
kmciabut if you're talking about RF transmission lines then yes, you need proper termination
Qantourisckmcia: no just common singal input rejection
kmciaI don't know what output impedance has to do with CMRR
Qantourisckmcia: well you have to match all resistors in the schematic as exact as possible correct ?
Qantouriscwell the output resistance is adding a minor one, wich could effect it
QantouriscI notised this becaused I added Rsim to simulate the ouput current limitation of the opamp
kmciaQantourisc: if you're building a circuit from a schematic then some of the resistors may need fairly precise values whereas others might only need to be within an order of magnitude or more
kmciaremember that garden variety cheap resistors have a variation of 5% - 10%
Qantouriscyea, was planning on getting a few 1% and then matching or go all out and get 0.1%
kmciawhy do you need that precision?
Qantouriscor manually match
kmciamm that's something you can do
QantouriscDifferential amplifier
kmciayou need a highly precise gain?
kmciayou can also get resistor pairs in a single package, which are thermally matched
Qantouriscno, common signal rejection
kmciawhy do resistors help with CMRR?
kmciaACTION is a noob
Qantourisc1% garantees about 40db reductoin
Qantourisckmcia: let me link you a schematic
Qantouriscthat one
QantouriscThe input is both V2 and V1
QantouriscV1 or V2 is being the "ground" of the input
Qantouriscbut the ground has noise on it
Qantourisckmcia: any differnce in the gain precision between + and -
Qantouriscwill results in a lower CMMR
McDonaldsWiFi^MillerBoss: ayyy
zigggggyMcDonaldsWiFi are you at mcdonalds??
McDonaldsWiFizigggggy: ;>
zigggggyMcDonaldsWiFi order me a #4
justJannesynx508, kmcia: Thanks, btw, I found out what it was. It was the Vernier LabPro, usable with a graphing calculator or computer, 4 sensors, 220$
McDonaldsWiFiAnyone know a good way of testing to see if a simple looop program works oin my breadboard z80 build? I have a uart I'm trying to use but I can't get it to work
McDonaldsWiFiso I don't have any real output besides LEDs, but I'm wondering if use LEDs Ill end up pulling my data bus lines low or something
phinxyHow many milliampere does a status led light consume?
DoYouKnowmost of those little red led's are 15-35 mA
DoYouKnowbut it varies
zigggggyACTION executes batch!
batchACTION executes zigggggy!
zigggggyACTION hugs batch
zigggggyACTION ruffles batch's hair
batchACTION shocked
batchzigggggy my new computer give me trouble
zigggggyoh no batch!
batchhell yes
batchwell it's a used one
batchbut the sata power connectors on psu are raped from owner before
zigggggyi have a spare PSU!
batchand new install of linux give me errors etcetc
zigggggyACTION gives it to batch
batchzigggggy thankyou soooooooo much
phinxyDoYouKnow: then it should probably be negliable if its connected all the time to a 100Ah car lead acid battery?
McDonaldsWiFiphinxy: you don't want to discharge a SLA very far though, maybe halfish so I'd call it 50AH or 60AH
DoYouKnowphinxy: yeah, it should be negligible, but keep in mind that your supply should be regulated, and that will require some extra current. connecting an LED direct to a car battery probably isn't a good idea. transients and other inherent imperfections can alter the current requirements to the point of exploding your LED
DoYouKnowand you should use a resistor to limit the current
DoYouKnowand the resistor itself will dissipate some current
DoYouKnowas heat
DoYouKnowthe LED is actually a nonlinear device, so with a car battery. Voltage should be regulated, and current should be limited
phinxyIll just desolder the LED. Just to keep the driver happy, distractions are not good on the road
DoYouKnowLEDs are highly nonlinear
phinxyWhy cant the leds regulate their current draw on their own!
DoYouKnowthat's why
phinxyIf the voltage was regulated very exact, there would be no need?
DoYouKnowno, you need to regulate voltage, and limit current
DoYouKnowLEDs are usually <12 V, and you need a current limiting resistor
DoYouKnowis this a high power LED?
DoYouKnowlike for floodlights?
phinxyBut voltage and current is dependent on each other. This graph shows that at 1.5V the current for a red LED is 20mA
DoYouKnowoh, right
DoYouKnowsmall red led
DoYouKnowyeah, you need to regulate the voltage and limit the current
DoYouKnowotherwise the LED will suck up more than its share of current at a given voltage
DoYouKnowthis isn't a linear resistance region
DoYouKnowit's a nonlinear I-V
phinxyHow come a incandescant bulb suck current until they explode then?
DoYouKnowincandescents are linear
DoYouKnowtheir filament behaves like a resistor
DoYouKnowalthough there is *some nonlinearity* it's not a huge exponent like the graph I just posted
DoYouKnowand for an incandescent, it's only nonlinear because it's emitting light
DoYouKnowand the plasma causes a nonlinear effect due to the electron gradient, similar to the junction in an LED
n2I like this as "documentation". :D
n2Do you agree?
DoYouKnowthere's electron diffusion
phinxyWHy are not incandescent bulbs emitting frequencies over the visible spectrum?
DoYouKnowbefore direct conversion to photons via the photoelectric effect
n2phinxy, black body
n2Aaaaaaaah DoYouKnow
n2Bremsstrahlung is, like, X-ray phenomenon
filadomeanyone want to help me find out why my gerber files don't work for Seeed Fusion?
n2incandescence is totally separate from that
filadomei used their CAM file
DoYouKnowsorry, photoelectric. yeah, bremmstrahlung is x-ray since it involves high energy particles
DoYouKnowand their interaction
DoYouKnowbut it's blackbody radiation
DoYouKnowLEDs are a special case of an incandescent except there are many more microstates in an incandescent
DoYouKnowin terms of the thermal blackbody radiation
DoYouKnowthe states only do one or a few jumps for an LED. for a thermal blackbody, their transition spectrum is thermal
DoYouKnow(a lot more essentially)
DocScrutinizer05n2: that's one "documentation"! anyway docs on par with the circuit itself
DoYouKnowI guess it's a little like a high Q resonator
DoYouKnowan LED
DoYouKnowinstead of a low Q incandescent
DocScrutinizer05you probably would want to avoid the high-Z zone in that circuit, by applying some bias to compensate for the ~2V4 gap between upper and lower darlington
DocScrutinizer05this circuit will have terrible takeover distortion
DoYouKnowthe heavy tail is from (going out of the mainstay here) probably a slow demagnetization glassy-type thing
DoYouKnowrelated to the crux of thermodynamics
DoYouKnoweg. stefan-boltzmann, etc
n2DocScrutinizer05, hehe
n2DocScrutinizer05, well, it's an ugly prototype...
n2but I'm gonna use it for a video in that "hand drawn" style
n2Sort of inspired by Bob Pease
n2(So, What's All This RailSplitting stuff anyway?)
DoYouKnowprobably due to the plasma phase transition
DoYouKnowlike the outer coronosphere
DoYouKnowor inner
ozzzyhmmm.... lunacy hour
ozzzyACTION backs out
n2DocScrutinizer05, actually, the interesting part is, even though it's a class B output stage...
DoYouKnowwell, in terms of density ozzzy
n2it doesn't fuck badly up at the transitions
DoYouKnowmaybe a better example is like what happens in the mesopause
n2I've scoped it engaging loads on one rail to "ground", the other, between rails, between rails and rails-to-ground...
n2so, there is a mild constant load underneath the output terminal
n2and the op-amp is really slow
n2which actually helps in this scenario
DoYouKnowbut It actually seems to happen during rain along power lines as well
DoYouKnowand other phenomenon. so the plasma phase transition is common
n2it has a slew rate of 40mV/S, DocScrutinizer05
n2at Vcc=9V iirc
n2so the class B is well-behaved
n2it's quite unlike an audio amplifier in that respect
DocScrutinizer05I'd prolly add some quiescent current
DocScrutinizer05aah, it's a control amp?
DocScrutinizer05i.e. "DC"?
n2DocScrutinizer05, there is 10K resistance between each rail and the virtual ground
n2to add a bit of quiescent current
n2not unlike to a class B opamp ;-)
n2And yes.
n2Basically, it splits your single power supply by giving you a new "ground"
n2it's limited mainly by the heat sinking in this case
filadomecan someone test a gerber file and tell me if this web service is down: ?
n2the opamp maintains the 1:1 rail split
filadomei'm getting 500 Server Error
n2if one rail-to-ground is loaded more than the other
n2(since the Vbe increases with higher current)
n2but does so slowly enough to not cause ringing, oscillation or weird cross-over artifacting
filadomenot sure if it's a bad gerber file or the service is failing
Loshkifiladome: is handy for those of us who can't even tell when it's up...
filadomethe website itself is up
DoYouKnown2: class B's are effectively 2-transistor amps with 70% efficiency or something?
DocScrutinizer05yeah, not an amp at all then, rather a CV-source
filadomewhen i try to upload the .zip gerber file it's not working
DoYouKnowI thought that's what they said on the amateur extra
n2DocScrutinizer05, it is a power amplifier
n2in a sense
DoYouKnowbut my memory is a little fuzzy
n2what it amplifies is just the current
n2of an unchanging signal
Loshkifiladome: send them an email
n2However, the opamp servos to maintain the output voltage constant
DocScrutinizer05that's a weird way of looking at it
n2otherwise, the rails would droop with increased load
n2DocScrutinizer05, it's also a very efficient way to look at it :P
n2all the math around it holds true
n2you just have to worry less about phase margin, crossover distortion and such
DocScrutinizer05I classify circuits from where a signal gets fed in, and where (if any) it comes out again, and how
n2Well, it's a current amplifier, DocScrutinizer05
n2it's a push-pull emitter follower
DocScrutinizer05here you're feeding "signal" to the output stage
n2It's a buffer amplifier with servoing feedback action (the opamp)
n2and a power amplifier
n2it magnifies a milliamp of current into several amperes
n2at the same voltage as the input
n2By definition then, it's a power amplifier
DocScrutinizer05meh, virtual inputs don't count
ThePendulumhm should the STM8S103F3P6 be able to do I2C?
DocScrutinizer05in block diagram this thing has V+, V- and one signal pin
ThePendulumI got an i2c LCD control board and I have no idea how to wire it up, if at all possible
tsenkoDoYouKnow: stop spreading lunacy
DocScrutinizer05so it's a constant-voltage source
DocScrutinizer05iirc, I only looked at the circuit for like 4 seconds, then my eyes started to bleed ;-)
bongofurytsenko he's kinda like that
DoYouKnowthe combination D, E, F
DoYouKnowD-layer, E-Layer, F-layer
DoYouKnownatasha bedingfield was singing about the ionosphere
DocScrutinizer05tsenko: I already wanted to ask what they're smoking
flor1anwhat could one possibly sing about the ionosphere
flybackanyone willing to help me with this flyback
DoYouKnowharmonic resonances of the spatial dimension
flybackI have to decide in the next hear or so to give up on the halloween project
flybackif I got a cfl ballast with one of the 2 terminals on each side (4 total) is the output of a diode
ThePendulumwelp the sduino plugin has an i2c example so I guess that must work
ThePendulumfork/exec /home/niels/.arduino15/packages/sduino/tools/STM8Tools/2017.10.21/wrapper/ no such file or directory
ThePendulumhuh, that file does exist with rwx rwx r x permissions
spludThePendulum, you have one of those component testers with the ZIF socket near the bottom, right?
ThePendulumsplud: yeah
ThePendulumwell on the bottom half, around the center
ThePenduluma third from the bottom I guess, but yeah, a ZIF socket somewhere around there
splud(or really, anyone here who does). Handy mod: take a utility knife and carefully cut away the rub separating the left and right series of holes. (the one between the midde "pin2" and the series of "pin3" on the RH side).
ThePendulumit's got a basic function generator as well so it's got a couple extra terminal there
TJ-ThePendulum: the shebang probably declares an invalid interpreter (not present, or wrong architecture)
Qantourischmm transient anaysis is working, AC not so much :/
spludI went to verify the pinout of a short lead device, and realized without the rub there, it'd be able to reach the ZIF contacts more consistently.
pfred1nothing works anymore
spludTook marker and marked the cutaway rib.
pfred1it's all gone to Hell!
DocScrutinizer05TJ-: good catch
ThePendulumsplud: hmm if the leads are short that might help. I got some croc clips that I need to solder some wires on as well so I can put things in horizontally without having to bend the leads
ThePendulumso far the barrier hasn't gotten in the way yet, but I'll keep it in mind :p
spludYea, I made that sort of recco before.
ThePendulumdon't really have any massively thick solid core wire here, guess I can twist two bits together
Viper-7splud: i just use the SMD pads
ThePendulumjust for stability, not so much current of course
spludBit little scavenged TO92 device wasn't gonna have anything to do with it.
ThePendulumViper-7: those are covered by the case on mine -.- I don't know what idiot designed it
pfred1ThePendulum that's what Dremels are for
ThePendulumyeah, don't really want to ruin it completely though
pfred1you're not ruining it you're customizing it
ThePendulumyou overestimate my customizing abilities :P
ThePendulumbut yeah I could have a go at it
spludI've thought about making a plug in pad. One of the testers I have has multiple pads on it for different size packages. i think a flow of solder on those would help with some SMDs
pfred1or better yet glue a bit of board to the top with some leads
ThePendulumViper-7: I had to extend the ZIF socket handle as well
ThePendulumbecause it would sit inside the case when down so I couldn't lock it or get it back out with my finger
spludThat "customizing" sounds like slapping a go-fast spoiler on your Honda.
ThePendulumbut they apparently realized that because they included the white lollypop stick I extended it with
spludGawd, I've seen some terrible things.
pfred1ThePendulum what the hell is that?
ThePenduluma component tester
ThePendulumanything in particular? :P
Viper-7ahh chinese tools - designed by kids, for kids :P
pfred1an avrtransistor tester?
ThePendulummore or less
pfred1that's a new model
pfred1I got like 3 different once
pfred1ones even
ThePendulumit is a fairly recent model I think, yeah
pfred1one's a real POS the other two are OK
spludIIRC, the code for the thing is pretty much maxxed out to the capacity of the AVR processor.
ThePendulumonly thing that slightly bothers me so far, other than how slow it is to browse through the menu, is that it displays zeners like ->|->|- instead of ->|-<|-
ThePendulumand yeah well, the case, lol
spludIt should be noted that sometimes the order of component testing will cause one to properly ID something that another will not.
pfred1I have microclips on mine
pfred1I left the ziff socket out
spludheh, can just solder microclips to a piece of pin header, stick that into the ZIF.
ThePendulumI'm making some croc clips for it as we speak
ThePendulumI didn't really know where to find those microclip things
Viper-7splud: the latest firmwares have all sorts of extra features, even protocol decoding for IR photodiodes and such
pfred1I use the micro hook style
spludThePendulum, CHINA of course.
ThePendulumsplud: PIN HEADERS, genius, let me check if that can work
pfred1you can't reprogram the GUI ones
spludViper-7, that's the sort of firmware on the device ThePendulum linked.
ThePendulumyeah this one can read DHT11s and IR diodes
spludpfred1, what say?
pfred1splud gui avr knocks offs use weird firmware
spludThePendulum, pin headers have the same 0.1" (2.54mm) spacing that DIP chips do, and the ZIF is not surprisingly sized for a DIP package.
ThePendulumsplud: unfortunately the ones I have here are not long enough, breaking apart some female ones with long pins now
spludThePendulum, use MALE header pins.
spludsolder your test leads to those.
spludAnd, if you carve out that centre rib (on just one half of the ZIF), the header row will sit farther down.
ThePendulumwhy still have the pins then, if I have leads?
ThePendulumthe problem is that the pin sits inside the insulation of the clip :P
spludmakes all three things go in one go.
pfred1ThePendulum was it a kit or did you put it together?
ThePendulumeh, well both really :P
spludAh, I'm talking 3-pin section, long end down into ZIF, wires soldered to short (normally through PCB) end of headers, and other end of wires soldered to test clips.
ThePendulumit was a kit of components that I soldered together, didn't design it though
pfred1ThePendulum board assembled and you cased it up?
pfred1OK thats a kit then
Viper-7they supply the laser cut acrylic case pieces for a few bucks
flybackall my balasts are dead
flybackoh well
pfred1yeah I never got cases for any of my AVRtesters
Viper-7flyback: use your finger
pfred1I put them on some hardboard though
spludI've laser cut some of my own, but actually for bottom, not front.
pfred1yeah I just make a bottom board
spludMore concerned about the bottom shorting out on a workbench.
pfred1I made like a stand that mine sit on
pfred1with a PSU built into it
pfred1I wonder of i have a picture of it someplace?
ThePendulumI'd take the front of but then the whole thing comes apart
ThePendulumI'm sure of it
spludI also have angled bottom board for the little 1ch oscilloscope.
pfred1splud I just built a DSO150
spludIIRC, mine are 138
pfred1yeah the 138 new model
flybackACTION throws in the towel on another halloween
pfred1they fixed some crap with the 138
pfred1I got a mad deal on it on Banggood they were runnign their anniversary sale i got it for $13 with a case
pfred1was like half off
ThePendulumsplud: this is essentially what I had in mind
ThePendulumand now on my bench
ThePendulumbotchy but effective lol
pfred1ThePendulum f00 mice!
ThePendulumred mice!
pfred1it looks liek a foo mouse
pfred1I made the extension leads I made a tad longer than that
pfred1but i don't do that anymore i just put screw terminals on the board
spludHuh, looks like the DSO138 can be modded to 2CH.
dave0x6dso I bought this BLE beacon, and it didn't come with a battery. The battery area seems to be about the size of a CR2302, except huuuge (height).
splud(needs support circuitry for second channel of course).
dave0x6dSuggestions on which battery it might be?
pfred1splud yeah I like my little DSO150
DocScrutinizer05I'd take a wirewrap IC socket and solder proper 30cm wires with microclips to it
pfred1it works up to about 160kHz
dave0x6dIt looks like any ~3V battery will work, but I'm trying to find one that doesn't require modifying the case.
pfred1DocScrutinizer05 30cm is awfully long
ThePendulumDocScrutinizer05: what's the socket for then?
dave0x6dIt's a nRF51822.
ThePendulumhmm I think I'll indeed go with flexible wire
DocScrutinizer05to insert the whole thing to ZUF
spludThePendulum, solder insulated WIRE to the clip. other end of that to either a lonely header pin, or aloing with two other clips like that, to a section of three header pins
DocScrutinizer05ZIF even
spludAnd yea, you don't want really long wires here.
pfred1I can't believe i don't have a pic of my testers
ThePendulumsplud: why not just the end of the wire instead of a pin header?
ThePendulumhmm 3 wires would be good to have
spludThe idea is that sometimes you're not just testing a component you don't want to have to bend the leads on. Sometimes its an in-circuit component.
pfred1dammit someone take a pic of my testers and post it online
ThePendulumright, makes sense; are there enough cases where you can test that reliable then?
spludThePendulum, the end of the wire is going to bend and mangle over time. If you tin it sufficiently, it's going to get chubby, or inconsistent in diameter compared with any other wires you may do the same with.
pfred1I don't feel like turning around to do it right now
ThePendulumhmm the test current is at most like 60mA, right, I could use fairly thin signal wire I guess
ThePendulumso I can color code it a bit
ThePendulumdon't really have thick wire in anything but red a black :p
spludyou don't need thick wires - you're not pumping a lot of current.
DocScrutinizer05ThePendulum: it's quite an annoyance to stick 3 separate wires concurrently into place before closing the ZIP
spludbut keep the wires about the same length and not too long.
pfred1my wires are yellow, blue, white, black, and blue again
ThePendulumDocScrutinizer05: yeah, connected pin headers would resolve that, loose ones not so much
ThePendulumbut I have it in mind now
pfred1another yellow in there too
ThePendulumwish I'd gotten 3 croc clips, or indeed proper micro clip things
ThePendulumI'd put banana plugs on the end of this actually, if I had some
pfred1that's it I'm taking a pic of my testers
spludSomething to do the next time you place an order for stuff.
ThePendulumcould put either crocs or my kleps onto that
ThePendulum3 black ones I mean actually, I have 4 here, 2 red and 2 black
spludI've got so many combinations of wires, clips, plugs.
splud(not for the tester necessarily).
ThePendulumI'll go with 2 black 1 red for now, it'll conduct the best!
spludThings to jack connections to metres or supplies to breadboards, etc.
spludAny shrink tubing?
ThePendulumyeah, plenty, not sure if that's really flexible enough though
ThePendulumsince I need to be able to pinch it easily
spludif you use two of the same colour, put them both at the same end of the 3-pin header: black-black-red.. Then you insert it the same way each time. clip end can have tape or something to identify the duplicate. differently.
spludThen you know one-two-three connections.
dave0x6doh fail
spludIf you did black-red-black, you'd need to mark both ends.
dave0x6dit's a CR2303
spludbut, swap out the dupe when you have the materials.
ThePendulumthe wire is still colored at leats
spluddave0x6d, or a 2302 plus a coin.
dave0x6dsplud: is that a standard? (serious question.)
spludThePendulum, shrink tubing doesn't need to be over the clip, just at the ends of the wire as an indicator.
ThePendulumsplud: well the wires themselves would still be indicators I suppose?
ThePendulumthe insulation that is
spluddave0x6d, no, just saying a suitable sized coin can make a spacer for some odd "coin cell" batteries.
spludThePendulum, didn't you say you had just black and red? Three test connections, something is same colour for two pins.
ThePendulumsplud: I only have multicolor signal wire, 28awg or something
ThePendulumbut I think that's thick enough
spludOr only black and red clips (which yea, for aligator clips tends to be common, though the fine logic probe clips are available in more colours, and you can get aligator clips in a 10 pack of jumper wires - red-black-white-green-yellow
pfred1here's my AVR testers
dave0x6dsplud: ah, seller got back to me, CR2477
spludlots of TO92 devices and not much else on that breadboard dood.
kmciaI love those micrograbbers
ThePendulumI have 4 of them with 4mm banana sockets hence I was considering to put banana plugs on these leads
pfred1made in Japan
flybackwho knows
flybackmabye this will be my last failed halloween :)
spludfailed halloween?
spludfailed how?
dave0x6dsplud: doesn't matter anymore, but I already took and uploaded this photo.
flybacklost too much time to injury etc to do something for local kids
spludI live in the country, no sidewalks, and more space between homes so kids can't just rove around here, and their cousins live up in the area that got gutted by the recent fires.
flybackI honestely don't think I have that many yrs left anyways
spludSo, not likely to be many people up there handing out candy. usually we'd take them up there.
flybackthe loss of my teeth brusistus are proof of that
splud(cousins about 6 houses separated from one neighbourhood that was levelled).
pfred1I think miyama may have gone out of business?
dave0x6dflyback: you should work on making an AI to replace yourself.
ThePendulumViper-7: haha
flybackgood riddence
spludIf I made an AI to replace myself, it'd be just as antisocial as I am, and probably not _wait_ for me to die before assuming my identity...
Viper-7or perhaps something more relevant and more scary...
spludTo be fair, I'm not really anti-social, I'm just not socially tolerant, which is mistaken for antisocial.
dave0x6dflyback: you're a part of the IRC experience.
Viper-7flyback was replaced by an AI back in the 1980s
pfred1I just hate people but I'm not anti-social
spludI'm social - on MY terms.
dave0x6dViper-7: yeah, I was going to say it might have already happened.
flybackI found the lamp balasts if I want to try one last time to light this flyback
spludI've got a 5KV power supply, that might work.
Viper-7and one more for good measure
flybackI just gotta see how I wire this thing up
pfred1a long time ago I made a circuit to drive a car ignition coil
pfred1I took a 555 timer and fed the pulses of that to a MOSFET that drove a transformer and that went into a voltage multiplier
spludpfred1, that;s pretty straightforward with a transistor and a signal generator.
pfred1it could make sparks about an inch long powered by a 9V battery
pfred1which I thought was pretty good
spludtransformer and voltage multiplier BEFORE the auto coil, or are you considering the coil the transformer?
pfred1it was the final step up
pfred1you have to realize i did all of this before the Internet
spludI have a 5 ot 6 foot length of PVC with a multi-KV arc coil in it, probes at the end, and a trigger, driven offf a LiIon 18650 cell.
pfred1back when we had to crack books
spludBEFORE THE INTERNET? That's like when I had time to read books for entertainment.
Viper-7someone stole the sensor light we put out front - i'm still seriously thinking about replacing it, and adding
pfred1they really haven't wrotten any good books since then
pfred1written even
spludBut back then I still had darpanet and uucp mail/.
pfred1not me I didn't have a PC til 1995
pfred1well not one that could network
Viper-7splud: pfft, thats what BBSes were for :P
spludViper-7, that coil is the heart of the sparkie stick I just described.
spludI doube the 400KV claim, but it's energetic. At 1.5cm or so is just crackles endlessly.
Viper-7yup, they're about 10x over-rated
spludViper-7, yea, I used BBSes too, but even before piconet and fidonet. No inter-site mail.
pfred1I don't know what voltage I was generating
pfred1had to have been a lot to bride an inch wide gap though
Viper-7there are larger ones
Viper-7but yeah, again, no way its a million volts
Viper-7100kV? perhaps.
pfred1a million is a lot
spludOhhh, soh sory, typo.
pfred1static electricity generators can go up to a million
spludU mesur, ok?
Viper-7i guestimated mine (a small one) based on air gap vs humidity and such to be around the 40kV mark before it couldnt form an arc anymore
pfred1I always wanted ot build one of those when I was a kid
spludThe Fry's Electronics store in Fremont (California, there's several stores in the Silicon Valley area) has a large Jacob'
kmciaI love that the Frys' have themes
spludJacob's ladder. And other things
kmciaI haven't been to the Fremont one, will have to check it out
kmciaThere's one near Sacramento that's train themed <3
spludViper-7, goofle "gabriel's bridge"
pfred1one like this
spludgoogle it even.
Viper-7all abort the markup train! chew chew
pfred1goofy chick sold separately
Viper-7splud: no u
Viper-7all i see are wheatstone bridge and peter gabriel links
spludIt's a mod for the initial spark gap at the narrow end of a Jacob's ladder. HV resistor that allows the spark to jump a much narrower gap, but because of the resistance, once the spark has ionized, will move to the other rail.
pfred1I can see it coming in the end of night oh lord
pfred1cue the gated drums
Viper-7in the air tonight..
pfred1I fucking hated that song
Viper-7and thats phil collins, but hey
Viper-7as denoted by you mishearing the lyrics :P
pfred1I hated that whole era of music with a passion
spluder, Gabriel's electrode.
pfred1Viper-7 phil collins peter gabrial what's the difference?
Viper-7pfred1: about 2 years :P
pfred1it was al la blur to me
pfred1hey drac
drac_boyhow doing pfred?
pfred1meh it's all going down the tubes but what the hell?
drac_boyheh? :-s
pfred1my python is so fucked up over here
pfred1it makes my eyes bleed to look at that stuff
Snert_yea stick with C
drac_boyACTION is just looking for how to tell a voltage regulator is damaged
drac_boyslow night here otherwise :)
pfred1Snert_ unfortunately most folks don't look at it that way
Snert_pfred1: C is such a breath of fresh air compared to those interpreted langs.
pfred1do you know that i have 8442 files on my system?
kmciaRust is such a breath of fresh air compared to C
flybackwell the ballast appears to work
flybacknow I have to figure out how I drive the flyback
Snert_pfred1: Purge! Repent!
pfred1flyback sweet
Viper-7Snert_: thats what they all say, till they start dealing with dynamic lists of strings and recursive pointers
pfred1try this in one terminal run ls -l `locate` | more then in another terminal issue this command while that one is running ps aux | grep
Viper-7kmcia: stfu hipster :P
pfred1strange things happen
kmciaI was using Rust before it was cool.
Viper-7it still isnt :P
pfred1I was wire wheeling rust
kmciathat's just, like, your opinion, man
Viper-7coding in rust is like getting a prostate exam while at the dentist
pfred1stick this probe up your nose and this one up your butt, no wait i got those two confused
electrobotpfred1 just linked to Idiocracy | In The Butt - YouTube
ThePendulumsplud: this is what I ended up with
kmciaare there any concerns for safe storage of high proof ethanol other than a) don't let it near sources of ignition, b) don't let the staff drink it
kmciaI'm going to build a rocket that runs on everclear and whipits
pfred1kmcia sounds like a party
filadomeanyone have a gerber .zip to test on
filadomei'm trying to see if the service is down or if my file is bad
filadomei tried sending some old PCBs and they are failing
birkoffhow can one find out if a DOK has been tempered with as to cause PSU failure/burn ?
flybackcollector on a flyback is the main power input correct?>
ZeroWalkerguten morgen
ZeroWalkerViper-7, you are alive!
bobo1on1flyback: you appear to be the expert on the subject :)